# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/921 "2013-01-20T11:16:25Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Well, as a start, they deserve one. Why? What are the criteria for determining whether a group of people deserves a state? > [@](#): > > What is the real choice ? 2 states, or one state with one man/one vote, or apartheid. Last 2 are, in my view, national suicide. Why is “apartheid” as you have defined it national suicide? And just so we are clear, is it your position that the current situation counts as “apartheid”? > [@](#): > > Also, Israel needs an international-recognized border. Again, why? > [@](#): > > It is acceptable to shoot at your enemy; it is unacceptable at population you control. Of course it’s acceptable. There isn’t a country on the Earth that doesn’t shoot within its borders now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/922 "2013-01-20T11:22:27Z")
Brazil, please stop helping. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/923 "2013-01-20T11:56:17Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Brazil, please stop helping. Lol, I am not here to help other posters. But if my goal were to help other posters, I would note that anyone who suddenly shows up from out of nowhere, claiming to be Israeli while at the same time accusing Israel of “apartheid” needs to have his posts looked at carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/924 "2013-01-20T13:23:15Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Lol, I am not here to help other posters. But if my goal were to help other posters, I would note that anyone who suddenly shows up from out of nowhere, claiming to be Israeli while at the same time accusing Israel of “apartheid” needs to have his posts looked at carefully. At the risk of getting pulled into the vortex, I’ll just note that **doubleminus** pings my radar (as an Israeli) as being an Israeli themselves. Hard to put my finger on what it is… and I suppose I could be fooled (won’t be the first or the last time :o) – but something about their writing style, “notional\* vocabulary”, and overall context rings true to me. I’m not going to enter the fray of the discussion proper. BTDT too many times and I’m jaded. - Notion, not nation. That is not a typo. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/925 "2013-01-20T15:50:36Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > At the risk of getting pulled into the vortex, I’ll just note that **doubleminus** pings my radar (as an Israeli) as being an Israeli themselves. Perhaps, but don’t you think there’s something a bit odd about a self-described Israeli “patriot” who nevertheless accuses his own country of “apartheid”? Anyway, I suppose it doesn’t matter much. His arguments deserve whatever weight they deserve whether they come from an Israeli patriot or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/926 "2013-01-20T16:32:33Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Perhaps, but don’t you think there’s something a bit odd about a self-described Israeli “patriot” who nevertheless accuses his own country of “apartheid”? Ever read the comments on this board from Yanks regarding the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/927 "2013-01-20T16:39:58Z")
Also, he didn’t say that Israel is practicing apartheid, he said that he was afraid Israel would become an apartheid state - which is very much the kind of thing Israelis worry about. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/928 "2013-01-20T16:54:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Also, he didn’t say that Israel is practicing apartheid, In effect he did. I explicitly asked him what was untenable about the status quo and his response, in part, was that there are 3 choices: “2 states, or one state with one man/one vote, or apartheid” Since the status quo is neither of the first two, the implication is that the status quo amounts to apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/929 "2013-01-20T17:19:25Z")
Wow. Ok, first to Jackmannii and Terr. > [@](#): > > This is something I have trouble understanding about the Israeli psyche. > > If the settlers are deeply unpopular, why do so many in your government seem to be scared to death of them and even find it difficult to eliminate blatantly illegal settlements? > > If the troublemakers are mostly just a bunch of recent U.S. immigrants who are loathed by the natives, you’d think a crackdown would be easy to sell. Before I posted, I reread the “deeply unpopular” part and I was for a few seconds skeptical by myself. But in the end the phrasing stood: 1. The hard-core (and this is the portion that counts) is deeply messianic and basically does not recognize the primacy of the state vs. their religious interpretation. This is something that very few Israelis identify with. 2. In the past few years, they have been dis-engaging the general population. there are few to none secular right-wingers in the ideological settlements. Also they have had multiple brushes and even attacked regular army units - fortunately up to now not with firearms, but destroying equipment and vandalizing army bases. It is surely strange how a small minority manages to define a situation, but looking at many historical precedents this is very common. Terr is perfectly right about this: > [@](#): > > 1. Altalena left a deep scar in the nation’s psyche. (explanation) In 1948, Ben-Gurion was adamant there could not exist sectarian militias, but a single military force controlled by the elected government. He dissolved militias belonging to the political left, but, seemingly the rightist IZL militia refused, and brought a ship loaded with weapons for themselves, called Altalena. It was duly sunk near the coast, and there were casualties. This episode of internal armed conflict is traumatic. Moreover, regarding a determined minority controlling a majority, please consider this: How did a small country, wholly dependent on commerce, oil and weapons on the western world, extremely unpopular in the non-western world and much of Europe, managed to prevent the imposition of a solution on the parties. That solution could have been non-adversarial to either party, and close to what was already agreed in 2000 (the Clinton framework) and 2007 (Olmert-Abbas). The points of disagreement were very minor both times. OK, that was the first batch. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/930 "2013-01-20T18:50:58Z")
To Alessan, Naphtali Bennett is projected to win 13-14 seats, because he seems a bright, rational and very likable person on all issues apart of the future status of the occupied territories, and even on those he proposes an unacceptable plan, but at least does not invoke trusting God as the only policy. He manages to attract right wing voters that are not only from the ideological settler hard core (they count 2-3 seats out of 120). However, he is (in my view) either a trojan horse with the nutties inside, or a disposable person to be thrown out after use. I, for one can’t say. Regarding the international force. Here you started to get mad at me. First of all, I am not for the evacuation of the settlers who will remain the the west bank after the slight border adjustments, if this at all possible. We’re talking about 100-150 thousand people. THis is less than 5% of the Arab population of the West Bank. Evacuating a person from his home, especially with the historic link they feel, seems to me more horrible and traumatic than living in a foreign country. Hey, why we can accept 20-25% of Arabs in Israel proper and the Palestinians cannot accept a fifth of that ? This may prevent a violent clash with them. Now, this is not my own idea, please read these articles by Yair Sheleg. He is a religious person, a columnist for the weekly Makor Rishon. [black feet in judea and samaria the algerian evacuation model and its relevance for israel](http://en.idi.org.il/analysis/articles/black-feet-in-judea-and-samaria-the-algerian-evacuation-model-and-its-relevance-for-israel/) [appropriate and inappropriate evacuation](http://en.idi.org.il/analysis/articles/appropriate-and-inappropriate-evacuation) > [@](#): > > The first time the Israeli public sees some goyim forcing Jews out of their homes, or the first time the foreigners prevent Israel from responding to rocket attacks, all bets are off. The foreigners will be out of there, and Israel will come down on the Palestinians like a ton of Ytong blocks. 1. [Yitong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoclaved_aerated_concrete) is the lightest possible construction block, 80% air and very fragile.😃 2. The _goyim_ should be there to enforce de-militarization and protect both parties. Believe me, Israel will not shoot at American or European forces. Palestinians, maybe. 3. Why do you see Western foreign help as detrimental to Israel ? This is not rational. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/931 "2013-01-21T00:08:42Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Moreover, regarding a determined minority controlling a majority, please consider this: How did a small country, wholly dependent on commerce, oil and weapons on the western world, extremely unpopular in the non-western world and much of Europe, managed to prevent the imposition of a solution on the parties. That solution could have been non-adversarial to either party, and close to what was already agreed in 2000 (the Clinton framework) and 2007 (Olmert-Abbas). The points of disagreement were very minor both times. So if I understand you correctly, it’s entirely understandable that Israel is helpless to withstand a deeply unpopular, lawless element within its own borders which threatens its security, because hostile countries outside Israel have been unable to impose an unfavorable political settlement on it. Sounds like both a flawed analogy and a cop-out to me. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/932 "2013-01-21T01:44:38Z")
Jackmannii, you got me wrong. I meant that \*\*friendly \*\*countries have been unable to impose, or at least to coax an agreement, even though it would have been highly beneficial for them **and** for the involved countries. Look, both US and the EU claim they support the creation of a Palestinian state for decades. A year ago there was a vote in the Sec. Council in which such a proposal was rejected - A US veto, but also a negative vote of other western countries. Now, I can try to find reasons for what happened. Maybe the Palestinians themselves were (and still are) so divided - Hamas and Fatach that they wouldn’t be able to execute their part. Maybe Netaniahu promised something. Maybe Obama was afraid of AIPAC. Maybe the world just got tired. In any case you may find lots of examples in which a small minority has a disproportionate high influence. Look at powerful lobbies in the US - health care for instance. It doesn’t make sense to me that Israel would have a universal health system, that is thought to be quite good, with 2/3 of the GNP/capita and less then half the GNP percentage in health services. So, Jackmanii, I don’t know why we have been so unsuccessful to take on the settlers. I really don’t know. I can only provide psychological and historical pseudo explanations. I would like to remind you of the end of the second Temple in the first century. A small band of messianic Jews decide to liberate the country from the Romans - that were by far the most powerful empire at that time. They also terrorized the rest of the Jews that thought otherwise, probably calling them unpatriotic enough. The end was clear and expected and you can see it pictured on the Titus arch in Rome. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/933 "2013-01-21T13:21:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > A more fair question would be along the lines of “what actions that Israel could potentially take in the future would lose the government of Israel your sympathy and support” I’ll ask that one then. Let’s see how many replies there are. However. It does look like an annexationist party is going to win a bunch of seats in the election and along with Lieberman’s party, which a lot of people have described as neo-fascist, and other right wing parties then it’s fair to describe Israel as heading further and further right. You’ve got a majority of Israelis who believe Israel already practices apartheid. You’ve got the government ignoring Supreme Court rulings and doing what they want so it isn’t really an assumption that Israel is heading towards apartheid and lawlessness, it’s an accurate description. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/934 "2013-01-21T15:48:24Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I’ll ask that one then. Let’s see how many replies there are. I know, how odd is it that more people aren’t responding to an off-topic question, which has zero relevance to the thread, posted by someone whose arguments are so fanatically anti-Israel that even the mention of actual facts causes a default flee-in-defeat-mode where little pellets of “Everybody’s entitled to their own opinions, maaaaaaaaaaan, so let’s have people vote on what reality is!” are deployed like so much chaff? Truly, it is so odd it deserves to be mentioned by you yet again in this thread. “When will your slavish devotion to Apartheid Israel end, do you know no decency!?!? Will you follow your Master’s bidding in everything, or can you finally state that would be over the line, Zionist patsies?” Yeah, let me queue up to answer that question asap. > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You’ve got a majority of Israelis who believe Israel already practices apartheid. Cite? Chances are you simply invented that in a dream, and it’s as untrue as it gets. As always happens when you are caught in logical or factual errors, I believe it is time for you to retreat to your claim that there’s reality, which the Zionists nefariously gather cites from, and there’s your loathing of Israel, so let’s just stack reality up against whatever sounds good to you, and we can just like put it to a vote. Like any proper research methodology, which all end with a popularity contest. Of course, predictably, if you have the basic facts wrong other than your hatred of Israel, you might be referring to the poll which the anti-Israel blogosphere has been trumpeting for a while now. Your lack of any actual cites for this claim (I wonder why…) leaves one in doubt. Might you referring to a different poll that was [was flawed beyond use](http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/apartheid-poll-errors-that-traveled-round-the-world.premium-1.472989)? No one knows, as you cited… nothing. But assuming that’s the cite you’re using as rant-fuel, let’s look some more at it, shall we? [ > [@](#): > > Levy Distorts > > Levy’s striking misrepresentations included the following: > > A sweeping 74 percent majority is in favor of separate roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. A quarter - 24 percent - believe separate roads are “a good situation” and 50 percent believe they are “a necessary situation.” > > Levy conveniently omitted the original question and answers from the survey. They were: > > 1. In the territories, there are some roads where travel is permitted only to Israelis and others where travel is permitted only to Palestinians. Which of the following opinions are closest to your own: A. It is a good situation. B. It is not a good situation, but what can you do? C. It is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped. > > 24% – it is a good situation. > > 50% – it is not a good situation, but there is nothing that can be done. > > 17% – it is not a good situation and it needs to be stopped > > If the answers are divided according to those who see it as “good” and those who see it as “not good,” then 67% see it as a bad situation. But Levy did not bother to inform reader that the 50% of those who saw separate roads as “necessary” saw it as an undesirable situation. > > […] > > While 69% of respondents answered no, the survey’s question addressed a hypothetical scenario that had no bearing on the current situation. Moreover, there were more interviewees who responded that they oppose annexation than those who responded that they support it (48% oppose, 38% support). In other words, almost half the respondents were forced to choose an answer about a hypothetical scenario that they explicitly oppose. Yet Ha’aretz’s online edition turned this finding into a headline without noting that it only described a hypothetical scenario that was already widely rejected by respondents. The online headline was subsequently changed to include the word “would” presumably to account for the hypothetical nature of the result: “Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel” but the damage wrought by the original headline had already been done, demonstrating the success of Ha’aretz’s apparent campaign to portray Israeli Jews as racists who support apartheid. > > What about the claim that the majority of Israelis believe that an apartheid regime already exists in the country? Levy wrote: > > Although the territories have not been annexed, most of the Jewish public (58 percent ) already believes Israel practices apartheid against Arabs. > > This is what the survey says: > > 1. Which of the following opinions is closest to yours? A. There is no apartheid at all in Israel. B. There is apartheid in some areas. C. There is apartheid in many areas. > > 31% - There is no apartheid at all in Israel. > > 39% - There is apartheid in some areas. > > 19% - There is apartheid in many areas. > > Beyond Levy’s ignoring of the survey’s nuance, with his blanket assertion that Israel “practices apartheid against Arabs,” are the problems inherent in the survey question itself – which Levy similarly ignores. What is “apartheid in some areas” or “apartheid in many areas”? The term “apartheid,” contrary to its superficial use in the survey, and contrary to the concept of “discrimination” has a very clear and precise meaning: According to the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, it refers to “an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.” (See more at “Israeli Apartheid Week”) > > There is no such thing as “some” apartheid. There is either apartheid or no apartheid. Apartheid is not simply discrimination – the sort that exists in almost every country around the world including Israel – which is precisely why the term was created specifically to describe South Africa’s regime. > > Anyone who understands the meaning of the word “apartheid” cannot reliably answer such an illogical question that seeks to reveal whether Israel practices apartheid “in some areas” or “in many areas.” Of even greater concern is the impact of Levy’s assertion “that 58% of Israeli citizens support apartheid” on those readers in London, New York, or Berlin who actually know what real apartheid is. > > […] > > The fact that the survey question did not define “apartheid” or explain to respondents the difference between “apartheid” and “discrimination,” and the fact that the pollsters admitted that the term was not clear to all respondents suggests that respondents took the term “apartheid” to mean “discrimination” and understood it as simply a synonym for the latter. Moreover, the absurd response options of apartheid in “some” areas or in “many” areas also would suggest that the poll writers, intentionally or not, misled respondents into thinking that “apartheid” is interchangeable with “discrimination.” This is a plausible interpretation of the data that Levy chose to ignore. ]([http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x\_context=2&x\_outlet=55&x\_article=2311](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=55&x_article=2311)) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/935 "2013-01-21T18:32:30Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You’ve got a majority of Israelis who believe Israel already practices apartheid. Here’s a cite: > **[Israeli poll finds majority would be in favour of 'apartheid' policies](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/23/israeli-poll-majority-apartheid-policies)** > > Two-thirds say Palestinians should not be allowed to vote if West Bank was annexed, while three in four favour segregated roads > [@](#): > > Three out of four are in favour of segregated roads for Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank, **and 58% believe Israel already practises apartheid against Palestinians, the poll found.** This effin BS of spuriously looking for easily Googled facts is getting really boring. There should be a rule that would classify this kind of sh!tty cite requests as a hijack and deal with repeated offenders accordingly. It’s just pages after pages of the same BS that is for some reason considered a contribution to a debate. Well, there’s no effin debate if you keep spinning wheel all the time by making easily Googled facts look suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/936 "2013-01-21T18:37:19Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Here’s a cite That I dealt with and refuted, with a quote, directly above your post. > [@newcomer](#): > > There should be a rule that would classify this kind of sh!tty cite requests as a hijack and deal with repeated offenders accordingly. Yeah, asking y’all to provide proof for your claims, and then analyzing your logic? The mods should totally step in and stop that. You obviously could use their help. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/937 "2013-01-21T18:52:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That I dealt with and refuted, with a quote, directly above your post. LOL, you “refuted” it by citing an opinion piece, and the scrupulously objective CAMERA, saying the poll is worthless, because (CAMERA claims), Israelis are too fucking stupid to know what apartheid means. I mean, EVERYBODY knows about the 2002 Rome Statute of the ICC, so what were those dumb poll respondents smoking? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/938 "2013-01-21T19:11:43Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > citing an opinion piece I cited and quoted the statistics, methodology and questions in that piece. You’re welcome to find the same information in a different web page if you’d like. As for the idea that everybody just knows what the actual definition of apartheid is? Evidently the folks writing the poll didn’t since, as pointed out, you cannot have “apartheid in some places.” Try again. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/939 "2013-01-21T19:27:14Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Try again. No need. In other news, when asked whether the sky was blue, 85% of Israelis said it was. They are obviously all idiots, because according to a 1997 paper of the NIST, blue light has a wavelength of 475nm, which is several nm shorter than the predominant light of the Israeli sky. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/940 "2013-01-21T19:48:56Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > No need. I accept your admission that the poll’s methodology, question construction and phrasing renders it useless as a poll, and you have no actual argument to the contrary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=48)