# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/961 "2013-01-22T15:14:34Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think anyone would deny that Israel has problems with racism - really, with bigotry of all sorts: ethnic, religious, racial, social, what-have-you. > > However, pretty well all nations in the world have such problems to some degree. Certainly, neither the US nor Canada is immune to bigotry and ethnic clashes. In my own country, there is Quebec independence and resulting tensions; there is right now a quasi-revolt by the native Canadian population against the harsh conditions they are subjected to known as the “idle no more” movement, resulting in blockades and road closures - and Canada is (allegedly) one of the best countries in the world from this perspective. > > Moreover, as any Israeli could tell you, ethnic tensions and problems of bigotry are by no means unilateral. Tensions within the Jewish community are as significant as, if not more significant than, tensions between Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis: secular Jews and the ultra-orthodox don’t get on well. > > I don’t see how pointing out that Israel has such issues really makes any difference. Israel is hardly unique in having such troubles. It is unique in having a near half-century illegal military occupation of the people it’s having a problem with though, isn’t it? I mean Canadian troops aren’t occupying Quebec and Canadian citizens haven’t spent decades illegally building all over land they don’t own, have they? So there’s a significant uniqueness about what Israel are doing. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/962 "2013-01-22T15:16:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I don’t think anyone would deny that Israel has problems with racism - really, with bigotry of all sorts: ethnic, religious, racial, social, what-have-you. > > However, pretty well all nations in the world have such problems to some degree. Certainly, neither the US nor Canada is immune to bigotry and ethnic clashes. In my own country, there is Quebec independence and resulting tensions; there is right now a quasi-revolt by the native Canadian population against the harsh conditions they are subjected to known as the “idle no more” movement, resulting in blockades and road closures - and Canada is (allegedly) one of the best countries in the world from this perspective. > > Moreover, as any Israeli could tell you, ethnic tensions and problems of bigotry are by no means unilateral. Tensions within the Jewish community are as significant as, if not more significant than, tensions between Arab-Israelis and Jewish-Israelis: secular Jews and the ultra-orthodox don’t get on well. > > I don’t see how pointing out that Israel has such issues really makes any difference. Israel is hardly unique in having such troubles. Are you seriously comparing Canadian internal issues and methods of resolving them to those of Israel and occupation of Palestine? And, in the process, making it all sound like a democratic process working itself out so nothing to see here… carry on. That’s just too funny. You just lost any credibility whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/963 "2013-01-22T15:18:17Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > @RedFury > I don’t know what to make of this. Apartheid is undefined prior to the questions. I would love to compare these answers to an identical poll in the US (say vs. the non-Caucasian population). Do random people think apartheid is a good or a bad thing ? Do they understand what it is and distinguish apartheid from other types of discrimination ? If apartheid is thought to be a bad thing, would 48% invite her to visit and 28% would not react ? Also, if it is a bad thing, it seems remarkable that 58% would acknowledge that Israel practices that. Maybe Israelis are very critical of themselves. I, for one, would be more concerned about the 31% claiming everything is fine. You make a very good point. If a survey was to ask the citizens of a country, “do you believe your country has a problem with bigotry?” would a high “yes” response be a bad sign, or a good sign? That would depend. It could demonstrate an awareness among the population that bigotry is a bad thing, to be fought against - a good sign. Conversely, a low “yes” response could indicate that the population is in fact very bigoted and does not regard this as a problem - a bad sign. OTOH a high “yes” response could demonstrate that the country does, indeed, have a bad problem with bigotry - a bad sign. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/964 "2013-01-22T15:20:45Z")
Correction: I think (not absolutely sure) that Israeli Arab life expectancy is higher then **the average** US one, including everyone. Maybe only for males, though. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/965 "2013-01-22T15:22:10Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It is unique in having a near half-century illegal military occupation of the people it’s having a problem with though, isn’t it? > > I mean Canadian troops aren’t occupying Quebec and Canadian citizens haven’t spent decades illegally building all over land they don’t own, have they? So there’s a significant uniqueness about what Israel are doing. Actually, the “Idle no more” movement is a deirect response to Canada’s apparent unwillingness to make good on native Canadian land claims - native Canadians form soverign nations, and their complaint is, in part, that their lands have been expropriated illegally, contrary to treaties signed with said native nations. Only it has been going on for rather longer than 50 years, of course. The paralells are not exact. But it is silly to deny that they are there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/966 "2013-01-22T15:24:12Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Are you seriously comparing Canadian internal issues and methods of resolving them to those of Israel and occupation of Palestine? > > And, in the process, making it all sound like a democratic process working itself out so nothing to see here… carry on. > > That’s just too funny. You just lost any credibility whatsoever. My point had to do with racism in Israel, not Israeli occupation of the WB and Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/967 "2013-01-22T16:05:19Z")
Seems to me that if that poll shows anything, it’s that there’s a disturbingly high minority of Israelis that harbor bigoted views. Complaints that the country is under a microscope and that other nations have problems with racism shouldn’t keep the situation from being addressed. > [@RedFury](#): > > They are good and they are organized – if way too transparent by now. Oh damn, he _knows_ about the shoulder insignias and the secret countersign - the game is up! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/968 "2013-01-22T16:12:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Malthus > I don’t think anyone would deny that Israel has problems with racism - really, with bigotry of all sorts: ethnic, religious, racial, social, what-have-you. Yeah… We hold the right to bigotry to be self-evident. We’re really equal-opportunity in that, with no sector spared. Regarding racism, I wouldn’t be so sure. Race and is not such a big issue. Remember that over half the Israelis originated in Arab countries and many have indistinguishable features from Arabs. Actually their original culture is Arab (and by the way, they are mostly right-wing). Still the rate of inter-marriage between Jews originating in the east and Caucasian types is 28% - so most 3rd generation youngsters are mixed in origin. That’s why our girls are so beautiful :). Even relatively newcomer black Ethiopian Jews intermarry with non-black at a 11% rate - and if I would show you some pics, you’d understand why. No, the conflict is territorial, national and religious. Neither Jews nor Arabs want to live together. Close to 75% of each party wants its own independent state. OK, We have elections today. I should go and vote. I vote for Meretz. We’ll have preliminary results in 4 hours. Don’t expect anything good, the weasel will still remain in office. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/969 "2013-01-22T16:18:46Z")
[Jewish Ethiopian girls](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hHy4tkOiQRs/TzsOMvdg4DI/AAAAAAAABBg/g4wAy7Sg7Rg/s1600/CIMG4771.JPG) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/970 "2013-01-22T16:22:54Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Yeah… We hold the right to bigotry to be self-evident. We’re really equal-opportunity in that, with no sector spared. > > Regarding racism, I wouldn’t be so sure. Race and is not such a big issue. Remember that over half the Israelis originated in Arab countries and many have indistinguishable features from Arabs. Actually their original culture is Arab (and by the way, they are mostly right-wing). Still the rate of inter-marriage between Jews originating in the east and Caucasian types is 28% - so most 3rd generation youngsters are mixed in origin. That’s why our girls are so beautiful :). Even relatively newcomer black Ethiopian Jews intermarry with non-black at a 11% rate - and if I would show you some pics, you’d understand why. > > No, the conflict is territorial, national and religious. Neither Jews nor Arabs want to live together. Close to 75% of each party wants its own independent state. > > OK, We have elections today. I should go and vote. I vote for Meretz. We’ll have preliminary results in 4 hours. Don’t expect anything good, the weasel will still remain in office. Fair enough, which is why I’d point out the real issue is bigotry. “Racism” is seeing the matter through a primarily American lens, as “race” is the form of bigotry most familiar to Americans - they have a tendency to see all forms of bigotry as “racism” and to use that term imprecisely to refer to bigotry generally. They also have to be reminded repeatedly that Israelis tend to see Jewishness as a matter of ethno-nationalism and not necessarily one of religion - hence, some ultra-Orthodox are anti-Zionist and many athiest Jews are pro-Zionist. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/971 "2013-01-22T20:42:30Z")
Interesting preliminary results. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/972 "2013-01-22T20:44:37Z")
Wow. I mean, wow. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/973 "2013-01-22T21:33:00Z")
Yeah, wow… My first reaction to the exit polls was literally two words: “Yalla Balagan!” (which basically means “And, we have a free-for-all.”) Personally, I’m fairly happy with the results. Could have been better, could have been _a lot_ worse. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/974 "2013-01-22T21:42:35Z")
Let’s get ready to ruuuuumble! Do you realize that about 60 MKs have been replaced? That’s _one half of our legislature_ going home. Beat THAT, America! ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/975 "2013-01-22T21:59:31Z")
Well, well, well. The weasel has perhaps 21 MP’s, maybe a third of them belonging to Benett really. The ten others are Liberman’s (who may go to jail soon). Bibi is hanging on a thread. Shas has three heads and the old guy that said that the Bennetts are goyim. And don’t forget Kahalon 😕 and the kahane couple. We look soooo stupid from abroad. Let’s bomb Iran. Or somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/976 "2013-01-22T23:40:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Actually, the “Idle no more” movement is a deirect response to Canada’s apparent unwillingness to make good on native Canadian land claims - native Canadians form soverign nations, and their complaint is, in part, that their lands have been expropriated illegally, contrary to treaties signed with said native nations. Only it has been going on for rather longer than 50 years, of course. > > The paralells are not exact. But it is silly to deny that they are there. Did the native Canadians get ethnically cleansed from these contested lands? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/977 "2013-01-23T01:36:47Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Let’s bomb Iran. Or somebody. Or, something equally “uniting” - a new illegal settlement. If that doesn’t work new offensive on Gaza is still the next best thing. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/978 "2013-01-23T01:41:30Z")
Are you… are you reading this thread, newcomer? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/979 "2013-01-23T01:56:07Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Well, well, well. The weasel has perhaps 21 MP’s, maybe a third of them belonging to Benett really. The ten others are Liberman’s (who may go to jail soon). Bibi is hanging on a thread. > Shas has three heads and the old guy that said that the Bennetts are goyim. And don’t forget Kahalon 😕 and the kahane couple. > > We look soooo stupid from abroad. > Let’s bomb Iran. Or somebody. The results do legitimize your original claim that people like you are not so far from the mainstream as others like to portray. Though the rise of The Jewsish Home Party is certainly worrying: > [@Naftali Bennett](#): > > “[My brothers and sisters](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/164476#.UP9B6P_Nlac), today we have established a new home in Israel,” Bennett declared. “Israel is coming back to itself. The Jewish Home is the new home for everyone, of all the people of Israel, of Israel who believes in its strength.” > > He added, “Today we set up a new home that knows how to protect its residents not only with concrete, but with martial prowess and power. Our enemies will know that you do not mess with Israel.” > > Bennett declared that, “There is one truth - the land of Israel belongs to the people of Israel.” He noted that his party is “a home for proud Zionists. A new home that will not be held captive by interest groups, but will fight for lowering the cost of living for the people of Israel. In this home we will act for equal opportunities for all the people of Israel.” Bigoted fuck. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/980 "2013-01-23T01:59:16Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > @RedFury > > I don’t know what to make of this. Apartheid is undefined prior to the questions. I would love to compare these answers to an identical poll in the US (say vs. the non-Caucasian population). Do random people think apartheid is a good or a bad thing ? Do they understand what it is and distinguish apartheid from other types of discrimination ? If apartheid is thought to be a bad thing, would 48% invite her to visit and 28% would not react ? Also, if it is a bad thing, it seems remarkable that 58% would acknowledge that Israel practices that. Maybe Israelis are very critical of themselves. I, for one, would be more concerned about the 31% claiming everything is fine. > > It is quite clear to me that most people rightly interpreted the questions in terms of discrimination. There are some kinds of discrimination that are life result- driven, i.e. similar to clams in the US that blacks and Hispanics are discriminated against, and some (very few) legal discriminations, the most important being the Law of Return. > > Also, the attempt to judge the reality in such a way, seems to be a bit similar to trying to judge a person mental status by asking him: “Are you psychotic ?”. > I should also remind you that 92% of Americans believe in God, down from 98% in 1967. I hope that you will use the same exacting scientific standards and deduce God exists, based on this Gallop poll. > > In any case, those poor, discriminated against Arab Israeli citizens have full medical insurance, social security, child support and free 13 years of education in their own language, have a longer life expectancy than the US blacks and Hispanics, have free press, religious institutions, etc. and vote for their representatives in the Knesset. > > Coming from a country that had serious discrimination (and probably apartheid) until the 60’s, and whose own saint and founding father Thomas Jefferson owned 200 slaves and speculated that blackness might come “from the color of the blood” and concluded that blacks were “inferior to the whites in the endowments of body and mind.”, a country which is the world’s leader jailer, and more specifically a country in which one is 6 times more likely to be incarcerated if one is a black person rather that a white one, a country in which most people belive that earth was created 6,000 years ago, a country that directly killed thousands and indirectly hundeds of thousands in Iraq and daily bombs villages in Afghanistan – countries thousands of miles away, a country that is obsessed with possessing guns, but unable to provide minimal health care to millions, well, I think you, Red Fury, have many issues closer to home to be furious about, instead having a fixation with us Israelis. Not an American, thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=50)