# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/981 "2013-01-23T03:09:54Z")
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/68791528@N02/8406120971/sizes/l/in/photostream/](http://www.flickr.com/photos/68791528@N02/8406120971/sizes/l/in/photostream/) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/982 "2013-01-23T05:48:59Z")
It doesn’t strike me as very important that people in the occupied territories can’t vote in Israeli elections. Israelis don’t get to vote for the leadership of the Palestinian Authority, either. It isn’t their country. I also have to ask, why is the occupation “illegal?” It may not serve any useful purpose any longer, but with whom is Israel going to negotiate regarding its end? How can one even begin to negotiate a withdrawal…if the other guys won’t even recognize the existence of the occupying nation? ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/983 "2013-01-23T12:35:43Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not an American, thank you. My bad.:smack: So, please, tell me _what_ you are, to rant against it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/984 "2013-01-23T12:57:47Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Did the native Canadians get ethnically cleansed from these contested lands? Sure, Canadians get [ethnically cleansed](http://www.google.co.il/imgres?hl=en&tbo=d&biw=972&bih=496&tbm=isch&tbnid=QUfrdLyhQEFX0M:&imgrefurl=http://thisisstrathcona.ca/neighbourhood/people&docid=LfsOmBg7oHGaKM&imgurl=http://thisisstrathcona.ca/images/history/Jennie-Wah-Chong-and-family-outside-Laundry-on-Water-Street.jpg&w=450&h=262&ei=ZNz_UMulEoSxhAfE2ICwAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=578&vpy=198&dur=18689&hovh=172&hovw=295&tx=158&ty=111&sig=103611393504028095542&page=6&tbnh=139&tbnw=219&start=75&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:79,s:0,i:318) all the time. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/985 "2013-01-23T13:35:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I also have to ask, why is the occupation “illegal?” Well you need to understand the definition of “illegal,” which is as follows: 1. For Israel, any policy or practice which negatively affects Arabs. 2. For states and entities besides Israel, a violation of law. Unless the violation is claimed to be in response to “illegal” activities of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/986 "2013-01-23T13:37:20Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > My bad.:smack: > > So, please, tell me _what_ you are, to rant against it. 😃 He’s Spanish. Don’t go there. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/987 "2013-01-23T16:14:31Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Did the native Canadians get ethnically cleansed from these contested lands? Certainly (depending on who you talk to). How else would one classify the process of forcing native Canadians off the contested lands into government-controled “reservations”? Not to mention giving native Canadians legally different status than non-native Canadians under the _Indian Act_. Here’s a native view of the matter: [http://www.cfne.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6784](http://www.cfne.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6784) IF Israel did to Palestinians today what the Canadian government did in the 1870s (and is still doing) to Native Canadians, their situation would be far, far worse than it is today. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/988 "2013-01-23T16:25:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > IF Israel did to Palestinians today what the Canadian government did in the 1870s (and is still doing) to Native Canadians, their situation would be far, far worse than it is today. That’s your argument? It could be worse so quit whining? And you live in Canada :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/989 "2013-01-23T16:30:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well you need to understand the definition of “illegal,” which is as follows: > > 1. For Israel, any policy or practice which negatively affects Arabs. > > 2. For states and entities besides Israel, a violation of law. Unless the violation is claimed to be in response to “illegal” activities of Israel. Mehh… you’re nitpicking. What about : 1. For Israel, any policy or practice. 2. For states and entities besides Israel, a violation of law, unless the violation is related to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/990 "2013-01-23T16:35:32Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > That’s your argument? It could be worse so quit whining? > > And you live in Canada :rolleyes: Not at all. My arguments are the ones I’m actually making - in this case, answering with facts a direct question. This is something you are falsely attributing to me - known in the argument trade as a “straw man”. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/991 "2013-01-23T16:49:43Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He’s Spanish. > > Don’t go there. Right. [NOBODY Expects the Spanish Inquisition](http://ninjaliz-chan.deviantart.com/art/APH-Nobody-Expects-119870983) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/992 "2013-01-23T17:45:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Certainly (depending on who you talk to). How else would one classify the process of forcing native Canadians off the contested lands into government-controled “reservations”? Not to mention giving native Canadians legally different status than non-native Canadians under the _Indian Act_. > > Here’s a native view of the matter: [http://www.cfne.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6784](http://www.cfne.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6784) > > IF Israel did to Palestinians today what the Canadian government did in the 1870s (and is still doing) to Native Canadians, their situation would be far, far worse than it is today. Israel ethnically cleansed a million Palestinians from what is now Israel and has continued ethnically cleansing areas of the land they originally ethnically cleansed Palestinians into ever since. They’ve also continued illegally building all over the areas they ethnically cleansed the Palestinians into. And they’re continuing a near half century military occupation. There’s no comparison with that anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/993 "2013-01-23T17:49:16Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Mehh… you’re nitpicking. What about : > > 1. For Israel, any policy or practice. > > 2. For states and entities besides Israel, a violation of law, unless the violation is related to Israel. Militarily occupying land that doesn’t belong to you is illegal. In Israel’s case the entire world agrees that Israel is breaking international law by occupying land that doesn’t belong to them. Here are a couple of UN resolutions on the subject but there’s endless more stuff on the subject if you google it. **United Nations Security Council resolution 446** , adopted on 22 March 1979, concerned the issue of [Israeli settlements](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements) in the “Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem”.[[1]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_446#cite_note-un-1) This refers to the [Palestinian territories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories) of the [West Bank](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank), [East Jerusalem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem) and the [Gaza Strip](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) as well as the [Syrian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) [Golan Heights](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights). In the Resolution, the [Security Council](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Council) determined: “that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_…Resolution\_446](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_446) **United Nations Security Council resolution 465** , adopted unanimously on 1 March 1980, was on the issue of the [Israeli settlements](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements) and administration in “the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem”. This refers to the [Palestinian territories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories) of the [West Bank](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) including [East Jerusalem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Jerusalem), [Gaza Strip](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip) and the [Golan Heights](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_Heights). After noting a report by the Security Council Commission established in [Resolution 446](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_446) (1979), the Council accepted and commended its work while criticising [Israel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) for not cooperating with it. It expressed concern at Israeli settlement policy in the Arab territories and recalled resolutions [237](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_237) (1967), [252](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_252) (1968), [267](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_267) (1969), [271](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_271) (1969) and [298](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_298) (1971). It further called upon the State and people of Israel to dismantle such settlements. The resolution continued by condemning Israel for prohibiting the travel of the Mayor of [Hebron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebron), Fahd Qawasma, to the Security Council, requesting it allow him travel to the [United Nations Headquarters](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Headquarters). It then ends by asking the Commission to continue investigating the situation in the occupied territories with regard to depleted natural resources, while monitoring the implementation of the current resolution, asking it to report back to the Council by 1 September 1980. The resolution calls on all states ‘not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connection with settlements in the occupied territories’. Vote: For: 15 Abs.: 0 Against: 0 **Subject:** Territories occupied by Israel Result: Adopted ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/994 "2013-01-23T17:53:47Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Israel ethnically cleansed a million Palestinians from what is now Israel and has continued ethnically cleansing areas of the land they originally ethnically cleansed Palestinians into ever since. They’ve also continued illegally building all over the areas they ethnically cleansed the Palestinians into. And they’re continuing a near half century military occupation. There’s no comparison with that anywhere. Is this guy real ? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/995 "2013-01-23T17:56:19Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Is this guy real ? Absolutely real. What part of that don’t you understand? You’re aware of the nabka, right? And the fact that Israel has continued to kick Palestinians off their land so that Israelis can have it ever since? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/996 "2013-01-23T18:02:47Z")
Also, too. Israeli elections. You’ve probably heard about the rise of new party called Yesh Atid led by a guy called Yair Lapid. This party is being described in the western media as “centrist” and “moderate”. Well here’s a quote from Yair : [Israel] “must at last get rid of the Palestinians” from the West Bank: “we don’t know how long it will take, nor how many will die.” > **[Six of one, half-a-dozen of the other: Israel's elections are a sham](https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/six-one-half-dozen-other-israels-elections-are-sham)** > > It was recently announced that new Israeli elections will take place in 2013. But on the issues that matter, there are no real differences between the Zionist parties. You can read about the other lovely guys who lead the other parties at the link. Here’s one of them, the last election’s Yair : Lieberman’s party ran an election campaign that agitated against [Palestinian citizens of Israel](http://electronicintifada.net/tags/palestinian-citizens-israel), with the slogan “[No loyalty, no citizenship](http://electronicintifada.net/content/forced-take-apartheid-oath/9071).” He has also called for Palestinian citizens of Israel to be “transferred” after any peace deal – a not no subtle Israeli code word for ethnic cleansing. But don’t forget Israel has never or will never ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their homes or land. Maybe “transfer” one or two of them, but not the ethnic thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/997 "2013-01-23T18:05:15Z")
This photograph has stayed with me for a long time. Here’s a picture of a Palestinian woman who has returned to have a look at the home she was “transferred” out of. Scroll halfway down the page : [http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-–-may-14/?mod=wsj\_india\_main](http://blogs.wsj.com/photojournal/2010/05/14/pictures-of-the-week-may-9-%E2%80%93-may-14/?mod=wsj_india_main) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/998 "2013-01-23T18:18:49Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > Is this guy real ? Welcome to the Straight Dope, _Ach Sheli._ Hand around long enough, and you’ll be voting for Lieberman. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/999 "2013-01-23T18:25:47Z")
To those of you who are not\*\* Dick Dastardly \*\*and are therefore capable of rational thought: I’ve been reading Yair Lapid’s weekly column for 15 years, and when he says “We need to rid ourselves of the Palestinians”, he means that Israel has to stop ruling them, for its own good. For those keeping score at home, that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![heat1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e19b73/32.png) [@heat1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/heat1)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1000 "2013-01-23T18:27:01Z")
This is really deep stuff. Is there a thread for clowns you could direct me to?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=51)