# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1041 "2013-01-25T03:12:08Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Actually, both of those nations have behaved far _worse_ than Israel! Israel never massacred entire tribes of natives, nor gave syphilis to its own citizens, or waged offensive war solely for the purpose of annexing land. And, of course, the Soviet Union is so far out there into the realm of pure evil, only a tiny handful of tyrannies come anywhere near it. > > Israel is far more law-abiding than the U.S.A., USSR, Great Britain or France – at least at the time of the height of their imperialist aspirations. These days, the U.S., Great Britain, et al are fairly well behaved. And…so is Israel. What I’m saying is that with the post-war occupation of germany there were two occupying countries, the USA and USSR, which had markedly different ways of conducting themselves. One tried to build a civil society in the land they were occupying and gave billions of (today’s) dollars in aid to build a new state in the occupied land. One deported large numbers of people from their homes, imprisoned others and so on. Which of these two situations is closer to how Israel has behaved towards the Palestinians. And yes the USA, Britain and France can both be accused of endless historical massacres, atrocities and genocide in their imperial phases (and in the case of the US, as recently as the 1970s). So you’re comparing Israel to genocidal mass-murdering countries like these to say, hey, we’re slightly better than this! Also, too, you’re saying that these days those former imperial countries are now fairly well behaved and so is Israel. Which one of those countries has been illegally occupying another for nearly half a century, building all over it and stealing its natural resources in defiance of the entire international community? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1042 "2013-01-25T03:16:04Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Israel: threat or menace? > You decide! I don’t think it’s an either/or question. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1043 "2013-01-25T03:22:01Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You can look at each and every case and judge each situation. You can start a thread and discuss the various crime of the Soviet Union or whatever but here we’re talking about Israel. Sure, and I’m not here to debate the policies and practices of other countries. I brought them up solely to demonstrate how ridiculous and unprincipled your position is. That your argument is based on special pleading. > [@](#): > > And just look at how you’re talking about Israel! You’re comparing them to countries that have practiced genocide and, on a dead bodycount basis, the most murderous repressive tyrannical regime in history. You’re saying, hey, Israel is no worse than these guys! Actually, I wasn’t saying Israel is better or worse. I was simply pointing out your double-standard for “illegal.” > [@](#): > > Israel are supposed to be operating at a higher standard than the ones you’re comparing them to. Are you talking about legal standards or moral standards? > [@](#): > > The only democracy in the Middle East, that sort of thing, you know. Are you saying that Israel is morally superior to its neighbors? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1044 "2013-01-25T03:30:10Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Sure, and I’m not here to debate the policies and practices of other countries. I brought them up solely to demonstrate how ridiculous and unprincipled your position is. That your argument is based on special pleading. > > Actually, I wasn’t saying Israel is better or worse. I was simply pointing out your double-standard for “illegal.” > > Are you talking about legal standards or moral standards? > > Are you saying that Israel is morally superior to its neighbors? I think it’s clear to see which of us is making the ridiculous argument. There’s no double standard. I’m happy to agree that something is illegal if, let’s say the world’s foremost international lawyers and forums like the UN and the ICC all agree that something is illegal. Will you also agree that something is illegal if all those entities agree it is? And as far as legal or moral standards go, I’m not saying Israel is morally or legally superior than other countries/situations. I think my opinion on Israel is pretty clear. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1045 "2013-01-25T03:38:37Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > I think it’s clear to see which of us is making the ridiculous argument. Absolutely. You claim without any support that military occupation is illegal. > [@](#): > > There’s no double standard. So you believe it was illegal for the US to occupy Japan after World War II? A simple yes or no will do. > [@](#): > > Will you also agree that something is illegal if all those entities agree it is? Not necessarily. Are we talking about a general principle? Or a specific claim regarding Israel? > [@](#): > > And as far as legal or moral standards go, I’m not saying Israel is morally or legally superior than other countries/situations. I’m just trying to figure out what you are saying. When you said that “Israel are supposed to be operating at a higher standard,” were you talking about moral standards? legal standards? both? something else? And if Israel is not morally superior, why do you hold Israel to a higher moral standard? > [@](#): > > I think my opinion on Israel is pretty clear. Lol, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1046 "2013-01-25T04:00:41Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Since the creation of the United Nations the UN has been the forum to deal with these kind of issues. And the UN is pretty clear on how it sees this particular situation. Oops, I missed this post; you ninjaed me! I like the U.N. a lot, but it is not a legislative body. It does not pass laws. It is the King Hell of all treaty organizations, but that’s all. It has some minor enforcement power, which, however, depends solely on the cooperation of other countries. Like the WTO: it cannot compel someone to follow its decrees, but only request, with some small degree of moral suasion, that others act. The Secretary General was in Syria, trying to help reduce the violence there. He didn’t succeed. In fact, I wish there were a world government, and some day there probably will be one. But the UN isn’t one, and so, in my opinion, you have not succeeded in backing up your claim that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (or, in the past, of Gaza or Sinai) is illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1047 "2013-01-25T05:30:32Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You can certainly make a case. The entire world did that through various UN resolution that I already listed and said building settlements all over the occupied territories is illegal. And if a military occupation has lasted almost half a century and the occupiers are building all over the occupied land at an increasing rate of speed then you can make a good case that they’re not really concerned what the law or anybody else thinks about how long they’re occupying the land, can’t you? Is this violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention what motivates you to call the occupation illegal, or is there another legal issue in play? That is, was the occupation legal until the first settlements were completed, or was it always illegal? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1048 "2013-01-25T05:33:18Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Absolutely. You claim without any support that military occupation is illegal. > > So you believe it was illegal for the US to occupy Japan after World War II? > > A simple yes or no will do. > > Not necessarily. Are we talking about a general principle? Or a specific claim regarding Israel? > > I’m just trying to figure out what you are saying. When you said that “Israel are supposed to be operating at a higher standard,” were you talking about moral standards? legal standards? both? something else? > > And if Israel is not morally superior, why do you hold Israel to a higher moral standard? > > Lol, yes. I’m claiming that Israel’s occupation is illegal. I’m pretty sure Japan signed an unconditional surrender treaty and agreed to the US occupation of their country and that the US abided by the Geneva Convention when they were an occupying power in Japan. They built almost no Christian fundamentalist settlements for instance. I’m talking about in general. When international law/community considers something illegal then so do I, whether it’s Israel or some other illegal thing. I’m not singling Israel’s illegalness out here, I’m saying all illegal stuff is bad. Do you agree? I’m saying that the basis of our support for Israel is that it’s the only democracy in the region. And you genrally expect democratic countries to abide by democratic norms, not have an ongoing near half century blah blah. If Israel is just paying lip service to democratic ideals but is actually just a nasty little racist apartheid colonial state then why should we support them over any of the other shithole states in that region? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1049 "2013-01-25T05:34:30Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Oops, I missed this post; you ninjaed me! > > I like the U.N. a lot, but it is not a legislative body. It does not pass laws. It is the King Hell of all treaty organizations, but that’s all. It has some minor enforcement power, which, however, depends solely on the cooperation of other countries. Like the WTO: it cannot compel someone to follow its decrees, but only request, with some small degree of moral suasion, that others act. > > The Secretary General was in Syria, trying to help reduce the violence there. He didn’t succeed. > > In fact, I wish there were a world government, and some day there probably will be one. But the UN isn’t one, and so, in my opinion, you have not succeeded in backing up your claim that the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (or, in the past, of Gaza or Sinai) is illegal. In my opinion I have. People can choose which opinion they like best. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1050 "2013-01-25T11:02:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure Japan signed an unconditional surrender treaty So what? In the context of Israel, you claimed that military occupations are illegal. But when it’s the United States, there is at least one exception to the rule. You have a double-standard. When it comes to Israel, according to you any military occupation is “illegal” without exception. With other countries, there are convenient exceptions. Anyway, I asked you a simple, reasonable question: When you said that “Israel are supposed to be operating at a higher standard,” were you talking about moral standards? legal standards? both? something else? I asked you twice and both times you ignored my question. Of course it’s a difficult question for you. If you were talking about legal standards, then you admit you have a double-standard. On the other hand, if you were talking about moral standards, it shows you were trying to confuse the issues and that Israel is morally superior. Anyway, I have no interest in engagements where the other fellow hides (or attempts to hide) his position behind a cloak of ambiguity. This exchange is concluded. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1051 "2013-01-25T13:23:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Are you saying that Israel is morally superior to its neighbors? Well, yeah. But given the level of competition, it could hardly be otherwise (think Man. United vs. the Columbus Crew). ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1052 "2013-01-25T13:46:56Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, yeah. I happen to agree, but of course the Israel haters frequently do not. Many of them seem to feel that Israel is the very worst country in the entire world. If somebody wants to say “Israel is morally superior to other countries and therefore should be held to a higher moral standard,” I have no problem with that. But if they hold Israel to a higher moral standard without acknowledging Israel’s moral superiority, they are engaged in special pleading. Of course all states (and other entities) should be held to the same standards for deciding if their conduct is “illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1053 "2013-01-25T14:42:29Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > So going by historical standards of behaviour which one is Israel closer to, the United States or the Soviet Union? The United States, clearly. After all, the Palestinians are still there. If Israel behaved even remotely like the Soviets, the entire question of Palestinian rights would be an academic one. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1054 "2013-01-28T14:53:02Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The United States, clearly. After all, the Palestinians are still there. If Israel behaved even remotely like the Soviets, the entire question of Palestinian rights would be an academic one. East Germans were still there. The USSR didn’r remove every single German from what was to become East Germany and Israel didn’t remove every single Palestinian from what was to become Israel. Although East germany did end up as a recognised state with defined borders so the Soviets were much better in that regard than Israel has been. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1055 "2013-01-28T14:56:40Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I happen to agree, but of course the Israel haters frequently do not. Many of them seem to feel that Israel is the very worst country in the entire world. > > If somebody wants to say “Israel is morally superior to other countries and therefore should be held to a higher moral standard,” I have no problem with that. > > But if they hold Israel to a higher moral standard without acknowledging Israel’s moral superiority, they are engaged in special pleading. > > Of course all states (and other entities) should be held to the same standards for deciding if their conduct is “illegal.” It’s Israel who claimt ehy have a higher standard than other countries in the region. They’re the people always claiming that they’re the only democracy in the region, the only one that respects human rights and so on. What I’m saying is that Israel just pay lip service to democratic ideals. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1056 "2013-01-28T19:30:25Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > East Germans were still there. The USSR didn’r remove every single German from what was to become East Germany and Israel didn’t remove every single Palestinian from what was to become Israel. Although East germany did end up as a recognised state with defined borders so the Soviets were much better in that regard than Israel has been. You don’t know what you are talking about. The ethnic cleasining of eastern europe of its pre-war ethnic German population resulted in deaths estimated frim a low of 500,000 to a high of 3 million. Moreover, they were not removed from “east Germany”, but from places like east Prussia which then ceased to exist as a territorial enity. > **[Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II)** > > During the later stages of World War II and the post-war period, Reichsdeutsche (German citizens) and Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans living outside the Nazi state) fled and were expelled from various Eastern and Central European countries, including Czechoslovakia, and from the former German provinces of Lower and Upper Silesia, East Prussia, and the eastern parts of Brandenburg (Neumark) and Pomerania (Farther Pomerania), which were annexed by Provisional Government of National Unity of Poland ... The fate of east Prussia alone is far worse than anything that has happened to the Palestinians. > **[East Prussia | Expulsion of Germans from East Prussia after World War II](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia#Expulsion_of_Germans_from_East_Prussia_after_World_War_II)** > > Shortly after the end of the war in May 1945, Germans who had fled in early 1945 tried to return to their homes in East Prussia. An estimated number of 800,000 Germans were living in East Prussia during the summer of 1945. Many more were prevented from returning,\[citation needed\] and the German population of East Prussia was almost completely expelled by the communist regimes. During the war and for some time thereafter 45 camps were established for about 200,000–250,000 forced labourers, the 1. > ... > [@](#): > > Evacuation of East PrussiaMain article: Evacuation of East Prussia > In 1944 the medieval city of Königsberg, which had never been severely damaged by warfare in its 700 years of existence, was almost completely destroyed by two Allied air raids on the night of 26/27 August 1944 and three nights later on the 29/30 August 1944. Winston Churchill (The Second World War, Book XII) had erroneously believed it to be “a modernised heavily defended fortress” and ordered its destruction. > > Gauleiter Erich Koch protracted the evacuation of the German civilian population until the Eastern Front approached the East Prussian border in 1944. The population had been systematically misinformed by Endsieg Nazi propaganda about the real military state of affairs. As a result many civilians fleeing westward were overtaken by retreating Wehrmacht units and the rapidly advancing Red Army. > > Reports of Soviet atrocities in the Nemmersdorf massacre of October 1944 and organised rape spread fear and desperation among the civilians. Thousands lost their lives during the sinkings by Soviet submarine of the refugee ships Wilhelm Gustloff, the Goya, and the General von Steuben. Königsberg surrendered on 9 April 1945, following the desperate four-day Battle of Königsberg. The number of civilians killed is estimated to be at least 300,000. > > However, most of the German inhabitants, which then consisted primarily of women, children, and old men, did manage to escape the Red Army as part of the largest exodus of people in human history.[14] “A population which had stood at 2.2 million in 1940 was reduced to 193,000 at the end of May 1945.”[15] > > Shortly after the end of the war in May 1945, Germans who had fled in early 1945 tried to return to their homes in East Prussia. An estimated number of 800,000 Germans were living in East Prussia during the summer of 1945.[16] Many more were prevented from returning,[citation needed] and the German population of East Prussia was almost completely expelled by the communist regimes. During the war and for some time thereafter 45 camps were established for about 200,000-250,000 forced labourers, the vast majority of whom were deported to the Soviet Union, including the Gulag camp system.[17] The largest camp with about 48,000 inmates was established at Deutsch Eylau (Ilawa).[17 How many Palestinians were deported to work in Israeli slave-farms? How many Palestinain civilians were actually massacred by Israeli soldiers when they took the WB and Gaza? Did Israeli soldiers engage in officially sanctioned mass rape of Palestinian women - as the Soviets did of German women? And where is the talk at the UN of granting statehood to east Prussia? Comparing Israel’s treatment of Palestinian civilians unfavorably to the Soviet treatment of German civilians post-WW2 displays an outrageous ignorance of the history of these two regions. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1057 "2013-01-28T20:43:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You don’t know what you are talking about. “Well, you have your facts and I have my anti-Israel sentiments. Let’s see what people prefer.” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1058 "2013-01-28T23:39:05Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It’s Israel who claimt ehy have a higher standard than other countries in the region. They’re the people always claiming that they’re the only democracy in the region, the only one that respects human rights and so on. What I’m saying is that Israel just pay lip service to democratic ideals. Compare recent regime changes in Egypt and Syria to those in Israel. Having actual, free, working, functional, popular elections is far more than just “lip service.” It is the soul of democracy itself. And, yes, Israel has room for improvement. So does the U.S. (gerrymandering.) Britain, France, Germany, none of 'em is perfect. And all of 'em are better than most of Israel’s neighbors. In any case, so what? This kind of penis-size comparison doesn’t address the central issue: how do we go forward with peace, freedom, and justice in the region? re the question of the OP, no, the sky doesn’t fall. Let Palestine exist! Let it exist as a state, and attempt to function as one. Will it be born into a state of war with Israel? Or in a kind of uneasy neutrality? Will its border commission draw a map that encompasses large regions now claimed by Israel? Or will it try to avoid direct confrontation by not drawing a border at all? I see it as a step (an awkward one, but that’s the only kind available) toward stability and peace. It creates a land-based entity, rather than merely a self-declared entity, that Israel can talk with. Or…not talk with. I’m sure that walking out on talks will continue to be a frequent tactic of both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1059 "2013-01-29T00:35:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > You don’t know what you are talking about. The ethnic cleasining of eastern europe of its pre-war ethnic German population resulted in deaths estimated frim a low of 500,000 to a high of 3 million. Moreover, they were not removed from “east Germany”, but from places like east Prussia which then ceased to exist as a territorial enity. > > [Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II) > > The fate of east Prussia alone is far worse than anything that has happened to the Palestinians. > > [East Prussia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia#Expulsion_of_Germans_from_East_Prussia_after_World_War_II) > > How many Palestinians were deported to work in Israeli slave-farms? How many Palestinain civilians were actually massacred by Israeli soldiers when they took the WB and Gaza? Did Israeli soldiers engage in officially sanctioned mass rape of Palestinian women - as the Soviets did of German women? And where is the talk at the UN of granting statehood to east Prussia? > > Comparing Israel’s treatment of Palestinian civilians unfavorably to the Soviet treatment of German civilians post-WW2 displays an outrageous ignorance of the history of these two regions. If you’re talking about East Prussia then that’s an even better comparison to Israel as the Soviets actually grabbed half of the land. What I originally said was that with the post-war occupation of germany there were two occupying countries, the USA and USSR, which had markedly different ways of conducting themselves. One tried to build a civil society in the land they were occupying and gave billions of (today’s) dollars in aid to build a new state in the occupied land. One deported large numbers of people from their homes, imprisoned others and so on. Which of these two situations is closer to how Israel has behaved towards the Palestinians? This is basically a rhetorical question. It’s obvious to anybody apart from the pro-Israel people on the board what the answer is. Any pro-Israel people trying to answer it by saying USA instead of USSR just look silly. You’re not allowed to name-call and what have you on this board but there’s no rule against making people look ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1060 "2013-01-29T00:37:29Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Compare recent regime changes in Egypt and Syria to those in Israel. > > Having actual, free, working, functional, popular elections is far more than just “lip service.” It is the soul of democracy itself. > > And, yes, Israel has room for improvement. So does the U.S. (gerrymandering.) Britain, France, Germany, none of 'em is perfect. And all of 'em are better than most of Israel’s neighbors. > > In any case, so what? This kind of penis-size comparison doesn’t address the central issue: how do we go forward with peace, freedom, and justice in the region? > > re the question of the OP, no, the sky doesn’t fall. Let Palestine exist! Let it exist as a state, and attempt to function as one. Will it be born into a state of war with Israel? Or in a kind of uneasy neutrality? Will its border commission draw a map that encompasses large regions now claimed by Israel? Or will it try to avoid direct confrontation by not drawing a border at all? > > I see it as a step (an awkward one, but that’s the only kind available) toward stability and peace. It creates a land-based entity, rather than merely a self-declared entity, that Israel can talk with. Or…not talk with. I’m sure that walking out on talks will continue to be a frequent tactic of both sides. Holding elections doesn’t make a country a democracy. If there’s no respect and equal rights for minorities, no freedom of religion and so on then then country doesn’t look very democratic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=54)