# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1061 "2013-01-29T03:30:59Z")
Holding elections makes a country more democratic than a country that doesn’t… As for your other specifics, I don’t agree that they describe Israel, so I’ll wave this off as a stalemate. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1062 "2013-01-29T15:03:56Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > If you’re talking about East Prussia then that’s an even better comparison to Israel as the Soviets actually grabbed half of the land. Malthus points out that there’s no comparison, as the Soviets engaged in wholesale murder possibly in the mega-deaths, among other wholesale indiscriminate devastation, and the US did not. Since Israel has not engaged in wholesale murder or indiscriminate slaughter, Malthus concludes it’s more similar to the US. And Dick responds that of course that just shows how much more Israel is like the USSR, because they annexed territory! Which of course just shows how, overall, Israel is like the USSR including that unfortunate allusion to all those mega-deaths, which Dick does not intend at all. Dick’s masterful argument? It proves how unreasonable and intellectually dishonest those _Zionists_ are. Luckily there’s no rule against letting folks make themselves look ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1063 "2013-01-29T15:16:07Z")
It’s even better: according to **Dick’s** earlier post, Israel has done worse than the Soviets - as East Germany ended up as a state under Soviet rule, and Palestine isn’t a state under Israeli rule. > [@](#): > > Although East germany did end up as a recognised state with defined borders so the Soviets were much better in that regard than Israel has been. Remarkable, really. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1064 "2013-01-29T17:57:22Z")
Please proceed, Governor. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1065 "2013-01-29T21:53:33Z")
“Oh, yeah?” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1066 "2013-01-29T21:58:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Remarkable, really. Odd, I would have said it was both banal and predictable, down to Dick’s wild distortion of basic facts until a country that didn’t commit wholesale mass murder is analogous to one that did, since they also both took territory. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1067 "2013-01-29T23:28:41Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Holding elections doesn’t make a country a democracy. If there’s no respect and equal rights for minorities, no freedom of religion and so on then then country doesn’t look very democratic. [\*de·moc·ra·cy](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy) /diˈmäkrəsē/ Noun 1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections. \* If a nation holds elections and the entire population is represented at the polls, that’s a democracy, whether or not you like other policies of the country. There was an interesting N.Y. Times article\* which interviewed people about the modest Israeli Arab turnout in the recent elections, noting the feeling among many Arab voters that casting a ballot constituted wrongful legitimization of the state of Israel, and that if more Israeli Arabs had voted (for opposition figures), Netanyahu would’ve been knocked out of power (insert irony smilie here). \*excuse reference to Shamestream Zionist Media. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1068 "2013-01-29T23:47:23Z")
Stop embarrassing yourselves by not admitting that Israel is just like The People’s Republic of Soviet Nazistan. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1069 "2013-01-30T03:36:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > [_de·moc·ra·cy_](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy)\* > /diˈmäkrəsē/ > Noun > > 1 > a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority > b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections. \* > > If a nation holds elections and the entire population is represented at the polls, that’s a democracy, whether or not you like other policies of the country. > > There was an interesting N.Y. Times article\* which interviewed people about the modest Israeli Arab turnout in the recent elections, noting the feeling among many Arab voters that casting a ballot constituted wrongful legitimization of the state of Israel, and that if more Israeli Arabs had voted (for opposition figures), Netanyahu would’ve been knocked out of power (insert irony smilie here). > > \*excuse reference to Shamestream Zionist Media. And from just the last 24 hours here are two wxamples of Israel upholding democratic values. - JERUSALEM – Rocked by a scandal involving birth-control treatments for Ethiopian Jews, [Israel’s](http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/israel-PLGEO0000010.topic) health ministry issued new guidelines on the use of the injections known commercially as Depo-Provera. In a recent letter to the country’s four HMOs [reported Sunday](http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519), Ron Gamzu, director general of the health ministry, instructed gynecologists against renewing prescriptions in cases where the patient does not fully understand the treatment’s implications. The ministry’s new policy comes in response to a controversy exposed last month by local investigative journalist Gal Gabbay, who reported that Jewish [Ethiopian](http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/ethiopia-PLGEO00000088.topic) women awaiting emigration to Israel in transit camps in Ethiopia were [coaxed into the treatment](http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/why-is-the-birth-rate-in-israel-s-ethiopian-community-declining.premium-1.483494) with little medical explanation and led to understand this was a condition for moving to Israel.\* > **[Amid controversy, Israel issues new birth-control guidelines](https://www.latimes.com/world/la-xpm-2013-jan-28-la-fg-israeli-health-authorities-issue-guidelines-on-controversial-birthcontrol-shots-20130128-story.html)** > > Amid controversy, Israel issues new birth-control guidelines - Yesterday, [Israel refused to attend a United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) review of its human rights record](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/world/europe/israel-to-boycott-un-human-rights-review.html?_r=1&) becoming the first country ever to boycott the Universal Periodic Review process. Under this process, all 193 member states of the United Nations take part in a regular review of its human rights record. Israel participated in its last scheduled review in December, 2008. _Al Jazeera_ [reports](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/01/2013129163929359758.html) Israel’s decision to end contact with the UNHRC followed an announcement last year that the council would be investigating Israeli settlements as a human rights violation: Israel cut all ties with the 47-member state council last March after the body announced that it would probe how Israeli illegal settlements may be infringing on the rights of the Palestinians. Israel has come under widespread criticism for ramping up its construction of illegal settlements in the Palestinian territories, notably in the outskirts of Jerusalem. Earlier on Tuesday, an Israeli foreign ministry spokesman told AFP the country intended to boycott the meeting. “We cut all our contacts with the council last March, including the current activity,” Yigal Palmor said, stressing: “Our policy has not changed.” \* > **[Human rights orgs: Israeli obstruction of UN Human Rights Council shields...](https://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/obstruction-accoutability-undermines/)** > > Yesterday, Israel refused to attend a United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC) review of its human rights record becoming the first country ever to boycott the Universal Periodic Review process. Egypt just held elections. They’re now governed by people elected by the majority of Egyptians. Top Israeli mofficials don’t seem to agree however, calling it a “terrible dictatorship” amongst other things. It seems that holding elections and having a popularly elected government doesn’t qualify you as a democracy in certain circumstances. Iraq hold regular elections too, same thing with Iraq. And neither Egypt nor Iraq have been illegally occupying another land for nealr yfifty years, stealing its natural resources, repressing its people and so on. If holding regular elections is the best argument you can make that Israel is a truly democratic country then I rest my case. And you can’t really blame Israeli Arabs, who are living under an Israeli Jim Crow system, to bother voting in elections. For decades any governing majority has had to rely on the settler/religious parties to form a coalition. Now with the advent of the neo-fascists under Lieberman and the new annexationist settler party under Bennett it’s become more explicit, but it’s always been that way. It doesn’t really matter who is running the country, the Israeli ship of state is headed full speed for South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1070 "2013-01-30T04:31:26Z")
And that is the best Dick can do. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1071 "2013-01-30T06:02:17Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You’re not allowed to name-call and what have you on this board but there’s no rule against making people look ridiculous. You make a very good point, however not in the way you imagine you have. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Stop embarrassing yourselves by not admitting that Israel is just like The People’s Republic of Soviet Nazistan. It’s all so confusing, I thought it was the Nazi Republic of Soviet Peoplestan, what with Jewish Bolshevism and all. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1072 "2013-01-30T13:58:00Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Egypt just held elections. They’re now governed by people elected by the majority of Egyptians. Top Israeli mofficials don’t seem to agree however, calling it a “terrible dictatorship” amongst other things. It seems that holding elections and having a popularly elected government doesn’t qualify you as a democracy in certain circumstances. If one reads the news, one gets the impression it isn’t just “Top Israeli officials” who have doubts about the democratic credentials of Egypt’s government. [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323701904578273423969121686.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323701904578273423969121686.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1073 "2013-01-30T16:43:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If one reads the news, one gets the impression it isn’t just “Top Israeli officials” who have doubts about the democratic credentials of Egypt’s government. > > [http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323701904578273423969121686.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323701904578273423969121686.html) But they hold elections! Maybe if it’s revealed that Egypt are arresting hundreds of kids a year and denying them access to lawyers for months then the international community will turn against this so-called “democracy”. > **[UK ready to take on Israel over fate of children clapped in irons](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uk-ready-to-take-on-israel-over-fate-of-children-clapped-in-irons-7888914.html)** > > Report funded by Foreign Office details claims of routine abuse for Palestinian youths ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1074 "2013-01-30T16:51:03Z")
“Ah yes, I understand your point and that it refutes my claims. How about I change the subject to something Israel does wrong?” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1075 "2013-01-30T17:19:37Z")
Ha ha, more proof that Israel is not a democracy by the Dastardly Definition: [it has racist soccer fans](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323829504578272213241708982.html): \*"Plans by the Beitar Jerusalem soccer club to add its first Muslim players spurred fears of violence among the team’s notoriously anti-Arab fan base, and prompted soul searching in Israel over incidents of racism at one of the country’s leading sports franchises. The move would mark a partial break with what critics say is an unspoken club policy that, for decades, banned the hiring of Arab or Muslim players. A Beitar spokesman this week denied such a policy exists…Over the weekend, Beitar fans outraged by the decision by club owner and Russian businessman Arcadi Gaydamak to acquire two players from a club in Chechnya unfurled at a match a banner declaring that the club would remain “pure forever.”… The office of Israeli President Shimon Peres said he had sent a sharply worded letter of protest over "racist’’ behavior of fans to the Israel Football Association. "Racism struck the Jewish people harder than any other nation in the world—I am confident that the entire country is shocked by this phenomenon,‘’ the president said. Though players from Israel’s Arab minority are regular fixtures on other teams in Israel’s soccer league and even the country’s national team, Beitar—which is in fourth place in the Israeli Premier League, after winning championships in 2007 and 2008—remains the exception in the Jewish state."\* ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1076 "2013-01-30T17:48:24Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ha ha, more proof that Israel is not a democracy by the Dastardly Definition: [it has racist soccer fans](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323829504578272213241708982.html): There are racist football fans and racist people in every democratic country. And also in countries that claim to be like other democracies but who put hundreds of children in leg irons every year and refuse them access to lawyers for months on end. Can you name one other democracy that is occupying another land, stealing its natural resources and building all over it while gradually annexing it while ignoring the international community? Is that the kind of behaviour that we generally associate with democracies or rogue nations? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1077 "2013-01-30T18:47:07Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Can you name one other democracy that is occupying another land, stealing its natural resources and building all over it while gradually annexing it while ignoring the international community? Is that the kind of behaviour that we generally associate with democracies or rogue nations? I’m stumped - but you might ask [these people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people) for hints. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1078 "2013-01-30T20:13:02Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m stumped - but you might ask [these people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakota_people) for hints. You got to love Native Americans (Canadians) talking point. The lowest common denominator that is very hard to beat; i.e. you can’t go any lower. However, you might - unknowingly, of course b/c you use Natives argument not to better them but to denigrate others by comparing them to Natives - be onto something. History records show that during the negotiations between UK and US after the War of 1812 British Lord who drafted peace agreement included an interesting clause – an independent & separate state with its own land for Indian tribes in North America. While obviously a good idea at the time – in the eyes of the Empire of the Moment that had time and money to be generous with other people’s land – it was short lived as Brits did not press the issue with their US counterparts due to various European issues including Napoleonic Wars at that time. So, history repeats itself – Brits took over the area, designed a good deal in principle only to see a vulgar militarized oppressor take everything for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1079 "2013-01-30T20:23:08Z")
At least that wasn’t totally incoherent, just totally inchoate. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1080 "2013-01-30T21:55:24Z")
You gotta love completely missing the point. Americans’ behavior toward Native Americans does not bear on whether the country is a democracy. Policies of Israel or other Middle East nations that are abhorrent to critics do not define whether they are democracies - that depends on whether they have representative government based on elections open to all parties. I suspect the confusion and/or misdirection stems from the fact that democracy is universally considered a good thing\*, and it is intolerable to some to apply that word, however accurate, to nations they detest. \*except by those who desire control in the name of whatever religion or ideology they support, non-adherents be damned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=55)