# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1121 "2013-02-02T21:47:27Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I was responding to […] brazil[…] Yeah… don’t do that. 😉 And, I agree, the settlements are a real and pressing issue, even while we know that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah do use settlements as a pretext. The actions of radicals shouldn’t distract us from the fact that we should strive for compromise and a two state solution with equitable water, agricultural, etc… rights for both states, and that that will require negotiation and territorial agreements. > [@Trinopus](#): > > I would have to both agree and disagree… In the very finest of formal proper diplomatic language, you’re quite right. But in the everyday language of the streets – and this thread certainly has its “street fightin’” aspects! – I think it is valid to say this. The problem is that it prejudices the discussion. It is, in a very real way, memetic combat in the same way that the “death tax” or “marriage equality” are. I’m fine with calling them “a very serious issue that must be resolved through honest negotiations”, or something of the sort. But “an obstacle to peace” is often used an attempt by some to shift to debate-via-redefinition so that, if the settlements are an obstacle to peace, obviously the Palestinians have no responsibility to sue for peace, since it’s Israel that’s blocking peace, and that just goes to show how belligerent Israel is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1122 "2013-02-02T22:06:04Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > So please do so. Let’s assume that Japan has NOT been occupied by anyone since the 1950s and that I was wrong in asserting that it was. And as said before let’s assume that the sky is blue and water is wet.:rolleyes: It’s not a semantic nitpick. Japan is not occupied by the US, nor is the UK, Italy or Cuba though we have troops in all those countries. It’s not a matter of semantics, it’s a matter of reality. You’re entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1123 "2013-02-03T21:21:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > How exactly does Israel “use” the UN to do anything? > > Israel is hated in the UN, has virtually no power or influence there and it’s been made clear is just about the only country that will never serve on the UN Security Council. What evidence that you have the UN hates Israel? Did it start after the UN recognition of Israel or after? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1124 "2013-02-03T21:51:04Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What evidence that you have the UN hates Israel? Beyond the things he already pointed out that you didn’t respond to? Probably his additional evidence will be based on the fact that he reads and analyzes data instead of deciding what he wants to be true and dreaming up things to justify his beliefs. You might also want to readup on the UN recognition of Israel. Nations only agreed to it because Israel certified that it would be completely responsible for its own defense and no nation would lift a finger if there was a War of Independence, let alone that any of them would help enforce a peaceful partition in order to avoid violence . But you keep thinking that Israel uses the UN to do its bidding. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1125 "2013-02-03T23:10:38Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > What evidence that you have the UN hates Israel? Did it start after the UN recognition of Israel or after? I already presented evidence. Beyond that, what you’re asking for is common knowledge. That said, I think this is the third time you’ve been asked to present evidence to support your claim that Israel “uses” the UN and the third time you’ve refused to provide any evidence. It seems to me that most reasonable people would have to conclude if when asked to present the evidence and you can’t present any that it most likely doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1126 "2013-02-04T05:48:29Z")
[With US Approval, Israel Plans Syria Escalation](http://news.antiwar.com/2013/02/03/with-us-approval-israel-plans-syria-escalation/) Swell. A cover on a rogue nation by the World’s – self-named – leader. And so it goes…till it all blows. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1127 "2013-02-04T05:56:01Z")
Ah, an on topic response that isn’t simply a link couched in the semantic value of “Grrr, Israel! Grrr!” Oh, wait, no. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1128 "2013-02-04T23:10:04Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Certainly. Off the top of my head I can think of two. > > Turkey regarding the occupation of Northern Cyprus and Armenia regarding Nagorno-Karabakh. > > Why is it shocking that democracies can do horrible things. Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip stopped being justified decades ago, but that doesn’t mean they’re not a democracy. > > Nobody argued that the British and French governments weren’t democracies in the 1930s even though they held most of the world under their thumb. Turkey was effectively being run by the military when they invaded Cyprus although they’re now heading towards what could be called a democracy. Are you seriously claiming that Armenia is a democracy? And yes, governments like Britain did bad things in colonial times. I’m talking about today, today’s standards of human rights and respect for international law. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1129 "2013-02-05T01:03:12Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Turkey was effectively being run by the military when they invaded Cyprus although they’re now heading towards what could be called a democracy. Turkey isn’t “heading towards what could be called a democracy”, it is a democracy and has been for decades during which it has continued to occupy Northern Cyprus. To argue it’s not a democracy is to deny reality. > [@](#): > > Are you seriously claiming that Armenia is a democracy? How isn’t it? I’m hardly an expert on Armenian but they are a parliamentary Republic with elected leaders. You’re desperately trying to handwave away the idea that there are other democracies besides Israel which have invaded and occupied countries. Being a democracy doesn’t equal “being good.” ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1130 "2013-02-05T02:45:25Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Turkey isn’t “heading towards what could be called a democracy”, it is a democracy and has been for decades during which it has continued to occupy Northern Cyprus. > > To argue it’s not a democracy is to deny reality. > > How isn’t it? > > I’m hardly an expert on Armenian but they are a parliamentary Republic with elected leaders. > > You’re desperately trying to handwave away the idea that there are other democracies besides Israel which have invaded and occupied countries. > > Being a democracy doesn’t equal “being good.” Turkey is a country that has regular elections and popularly elected governments. But when a government that the army doesn’t like gets elected they stage a coup. Any government that they do allow in power knows it’s on a very short leash and so doesn’t stray very far from the preferred policies of the army. Armenia has elections but they’re not exactly free and fair : [http://www.opendemocracy.net/krzysztof-bobinski/armenias-election-dark-deeds-slim-hopes](http://www.opendemocracy.net/krzysztof-bobinski/armenias-election-dark-deeds-slim-hopes) It seems democracy is in the eye of the beholder. Egypt has elections and a democratically-elected government but Israel calls it “a terrible dictatorship” amongst other things. Iraq is a similar situation. Israel is heading down the apartheid road (most Israelis think it’s already there) and most people would consider apartheid, not to mention the endless illegalities of the occupation, incompatible with democracy. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1131 "2013-02-05T02:56:02Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > (most Israelis think it’s already there) Or, as shown to you already, the question that “showed” that was nonsensical to the point of absurdity and incompatible with the actual definition of apartheid. But I believe that’s your cue to put reality up to popular referendum, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1132 "2013-02-05T03:03:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or, as shown to you already, the question that “showed” that was nonsensical to the point of absurdity and incompatible with the actual definition of apartheid. But I believe that’s your cue to put reality up to popular referendum, yes? I think other people already made an excellent job of pointing out who was nonsensical on this one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1133 "2013-02-05T03:04:57Z")
Quite. So do you have that definition of “Apartheid” that can be “Apartheid in some places in a country, but not in others”? No? Didn’t think so. Boy do _I_ ever look silly. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1134 "2013-02-05T03:14:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Quite. > So do you have that definition of “Apartheid” that can be “Apartheid in some places in a country, but not in others”? > No? > Didn’t think so. > > Boy do _I_ ever look silly. Nobody’s making you. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1135 "2013-02-05T03:19:21Z")
So, no definition just snide innuendo about how you’ve already proven yourself and your opponents are so silly, despite the fact that you haven’t actually provided any proof, at all, that there’s a definition of “Apartheid” compatible with a country having “some” or “a bit” or “a touch” of Apartheid? Have you considered just automating your responses via bot? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1136 "2013-02-05T03:39:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So, no definition just snide innuendo about how you’ve already proven yourself and your opponents are so silly, despite the fact that you haven’t actually provided any proof, at all, that there’s a definition of “Apartheid” compatible with a country having “some” or “a bit” or “a touch” of Apartheid? > > Have you considered just automating your responses via bot? Yeah, our side of the argument produced facts, numbers and evidence and you produced a couple of opinion pieces. So I’m happy to let those repective arguments stand for themselves, no need to keep bashing you over the head with it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1137 "2013-02-05T04:01:40Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Yeah, our side of the argument produced facts, numbers and evidence Fictional. First of all, just to drag you back to reality here, I was the one who first cited the poll. Second, I was the one who cited its methodology and question phrasing. Y’all were the ones who, still, cannot explain how there can be “just a touch of Apartheid, here and there” in a nation. But of course, unable to provide any evidence, at all, for any accepted definition of “Apartheid” which allows there to be only “some Apartheid” in a nation, you just claim victory. And, of course, third, I didn’t cite an opinion piece, I cited the facts in it, facts which you cannot dispute but you can feebly attempt to handwave by implying they’re opinions. “So… you can’t show how that’s an actually valid question, as it relies on Jabberwockian nonsense and makes absolutely no sense in context?” “You’re silly!” “Yeah, so no definition?” “I’m right!” "In other words, you really can’t explain how the question was at all valid, or how we can draw any valid conclusions from it? In fact, you have no answer at all for how there can be “Apartheid in only some sphere in a country.” “I win. I win! U R so dum! U R so dum!” Surely coding a bot for your argument wouldn’t be terribly difficult, Dick. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1138 "2013-02-05T04:46:19Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Turkey is a country that has regular elections and popularly elected governments. But when a government that the army doesn’t like gets elected they stage a coup. Any government that they do allow in power knows it’s on a very short leash and so doesn’t stray very far from the preferred policies of the army. Your information is grossly outdated. This isn’t the 80s anymore. The current government is despised by the army, actively pursues policies the army doesn’t like yet they haven’t been kicked out and they aren’t going to. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1139 "2013-02-05T12:51:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your information is grossly outdated. This isn’t the 80s anymore. > > The current government is despised by the army, actively pursues policies the army doesn’t like yet they haven’t been kicked out and they aren’t going to. Tuesday 25 September 2012 The jailing of hundreds of army officers accused of [plotting a coup against the government of prime minister Tayyip Erdogan](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19670530) marks a low-point for [Turkey](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/turkey)’s military, which for decades exercised shadowy control over the country with scant regard for democratic values. But the outcome of the so-called Sledgehammer (Balyoz) case highlights a new worry: that Erdogan, in power since 2002 and with his eye on a revamped, executive presidency, is becoming just as authoritarian and over-bearing as the generals once were. It is possible to view the Sledgehammer trial, and two similar plot investigations (known as Ergenekon and KCK) also involving hundreds of suspects, as an overdue, even praiseworthy attempt to clean house. Turkey endured three outright military coups between 1960 and 1980, and a moderate Islamist government, a forerunner to the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP), was forced from office in 1997… > **[Turkey's Sledgehammer Coup verdict: justice or Soviet-style show trial? |...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/sep/25/turkey-sledgehammer-coup-trial-verdict)** > > Simon Tisdall: Turkish court's jailing of hundreds of military officers over Erdogan coup plot revives fears of return to authoritarian rule ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1140 "2013-02-05T13:38:55Z")
Also: > [@](#): > > With 49 journalists imprisoned for their work as of December 1, Turkey was the world’s leading jailer of the press, surpassing Iran, China, and Eritrea, according to CPJ’s annual worldwide census. The majority of the cases are Kurdish reporters and editors arraigned on terrorism-related charges. See: [Journalists imprisonments](http://www.cpj.org/europe/turkey/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=58)