# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/101 "2011-09-17T21:27:36Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You apparently dismiss the possibility of there being a factual basis for that. That’s because he has a functiong brain. Only an anti-Semite, a complete moron, or someone who was both would think Israel worse than all other nations. Israel certainly has issues for which it’s justly criticized, but it would take a massive amount of ignorance or a staggering amount of intellectual dishonest to claim Israel was worse than all other nations. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/102 "2011-09-17T21:29:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You apparently dismiss the possibility of there being a factual basis for that. Correct. I deny any claim that Israel is the very worst country in the world in terms of human rights abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/103 "2011-09-17T23:23:56Z")
Why shouldn’t Arabs recognize Israel as a Jewish state? It’s no better than the far right in Israel refusing to recognize the need for Palestinian sovereignty. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/104 "2011-09-17T23:57:08Z")
Genera Swartzkopf said the most important factor for peace in the Middle east is resolution of the Palestinian question. It is the largest impediment to peace in the Middle east. Patraeus The Israeli/Palestinian conflict foments anti American sentiment due to the perception of American favoritism of Israel. A Palestinian state would be a great first step. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/105 "2011-09-18T00:11:01Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Genera Swartzkopf said the most important factor for peace in the Middle east is resolution of the Palestinian question. Yes, Iraq invaded Kuwait because of Israel. The civil war in Yemen was because of Israel. The civil war in Libya is because of Israel. The war in Lebanon between Christians and Muslims was actually because of the Jews. The Iran/Iraq war was because of Israel. The current slaughter of thousands of civilians in Syria is because of Israel. All because of Israel. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > A Palestinian state would be a great first step. Sure, because appeasement has always worked in the past. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/106 "2011-09-18T00:21:57Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Anyways, I think there’s some confusion on the terms of recognition so my understanding is that Abbas is willing to recognize Israel as a state but Netanyahu wants recognition of Israel as a “Jewish State”. Which makes it for a perfect deadlock. > > I can see why Abbas will not recognize it as “Jewish State” as it implies Israeli Palestinians as 2nd class citizens and, to a high ideological degree, admits that Israel has a claim on all of the territory of so called “Old Palestine” as religious wing would be much fanned by this. > > And, I can see Netanyahu insisting on “Jewish State” because recognizing just Israel as a state somehow removes the all important notion of Jews being, I don’t know, on their own, in their country arranging things how they want and in accordance with Torah and whatnot and without the need to worry how minorities feel. > > And, to be honest, I can see “logic” in both concerns. The deadlock however is that the only side that can make any guarantees hold, Government of US is so in bed with Netanyahu government which makes it impossible for Abbas to agree on “Jewish State” in theory and then see in practice further increase in illegal settlements. > > However, not to say that I don’t have sympathy for reasons to have “Jewish State” but isn’t the project of homeland by nationalist Zionists completed? Why demand for recognition of religious designation of the State of Israel? So that the U.S. doesn’t have to vote against it. Interesting opinion piece on this in Al Jazeera: > **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/107 "2011-09-18T00:35:46Z")
I’m getting so sick and fucking tired of this bullshit that I can barely begin to put it into words. Israel needs to recognize the Palestinian state. Palestine and other Islamic nations need to recognize the Israeli state. Jerusalem should not be the capital of the Israeli state, should be under Israeli control, and should allow free access to Muslims and Christians. And everybody involved should turn into adults. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/108 "2011-09-18T00:56:28Z")
Israel recognizes what is the idea of a Palestinian state. But a sovereign state with defined borders that should be a member of the U.N.? Negative. It’s grossly unfair to put the weight of the blame on Israel. It’s just as unfair as expecting them to give up their capital. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/109 "2011-09-18T01:38:22Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Israel recognizes what is the idea of a Palestinian state. But a sovereign state with defined borders that should be a member of the U.N.? Negative. Tough fucking shit. Exactly the same as it is tough fucking shit for the countries that refuse to recognize Israel as a sovereign state with defined borders. > [@](#): > > It’s grossly unfair to put the weight of the blame on Israel. It’s just as unfair as expecting them to give up their capital. Unfair? Who gives a fuck? Life is unfair, yet it goes on. In what way am I putting the weight of the blame on Israel? I am putting _equal_ blame on Israel. Jerusalem is not recognized by any foreign nation (including the United States) as the capital of Israel. Straighten this shit out. Israel is a country, and has the right to exist. Palestine is a country and has the right to exist. Work it out, or fuck both of them. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/110 "2011-09-18T01:54:58Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Why shouldn’t Arabs recognize Israel as a Jewish state? Why should any state demand to be recognized as explicitly ethnically or denominationally based? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/111 "2011-09-18T01:57:22Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Israel certainly has issues for which it’s justly criticized, but it would take a massive amount of ignorance or a staggering amount of intellectual dishonest to claim Israel was worse than all other nations. And even more to equate a quantitative measure with a qualitative one. And more than that to go straight to emotionalist denunciation rather than factual assessment. But if you and he want to insist anyway, it’s your right. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/112 "2011-09-18T01:57:36Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I’m getting so sick and fucking tired of this bullshit that I can barely begin to put it into words. > > Israel needs to recognize the Palestinian state. Palestine and other Islamic nations need to recognize the Israeli state. Jerusalem should not be the capital of the Israeli state, should be under Israeli control, and should allow free access to Muslims and Christians. > > And everybody involved should turn into adults. I don’t get the “should allow free access to Muslims and Christians.” Has some ignorant fool told you that Muslims and Christians don’t already have this in contrast to the way Jews were prohibited when under the control of King Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/113 "2011-09-18T02:02:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Why should any state demand to be recognized as explicitly ethnically or denominationally based? In the case of Israel, recognizing Israel as Jewish State is a polite way of conceding that Israel has the right to refuse entry to the descendants of Arabs who fled in 1948. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/114 "2011-09-18T02:02:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t get the “should allow free access to Muslims and Christians.” > > Has some ignorant fool told you that Muslims and Christians don’t already have this in contrast to the way Jews were prohibited when under the control of King Hussein. I don’t care what may or may not have happened in the past. Jerusalem is a holy city for three separate major religions that I don’t believe in, and all members of those religions should be allowed access. If that happens now, fine, that’s good. It should continue to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/115 "2011-09-18T02:11:41Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I don’t care what may or may not have happened in the past. Jerusalem is a holy city for three separate major religions that I don’t believe in, and all members of those religions should be allowed access. If that happens now, fine, that’s good. It should continue to happen. Why did you feel the need to mention it since that’s been the case since Israel took full control in 1967? People when discussing the situation regarding black Americans generally don’t feel the need to denounce segregation as if it hadn’t been done away with decades ago. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/116 "2011-09-18T02:16:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why did you feel the need to mention it since that’s been the case since Israel took full control in 1967? Because. Just because. Just because I think that they should all be allowed access. Do you have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/117 "2011-09-18T02:49:42Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why did you feel the need to mention it since that’s been the case since Israel took full control in 1967? Look, the Israelis need to start acting like adults and allow Muslims and Christians to access holy sites in Jerusalem. 🙂 After all, [what has Israel ever done for peace?](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc1kDE4jeHc) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/118 "2011-09-18T03:20:24Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Israel recognizes what is the idea of a Palestinian state. But a sovereign state with defined borders that should be a member of the U.N.? Negative. Why doesn’t a child that fell out of a Palestinian vagina deserve the same rights to self government as a child that fell out of an Israeli vagina? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/119 "2011-09-18T04:03:17Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And even more to equate a quantitative measure with a qualitative one. And more than that to go straight to emotionalist denunciation rather than factual assessment. > > But if you and he want to insist anyway, it’s your right. :rolleyes: People who take seriously the idea that Israel is either the worst or even one of the worst countries in the world have no business accusing others of preferring “emotionalist denunciation rather than factual assessment.” I’m hardly a Zionist and am quite critical of many of Israel’s actions, but most of Israel’s critics on this thread and this site have shown little understanding of Israel and even less understanding of either the Palestinians and their cause and have preferred making “emotionalist denunciation(s)” to making pointed criticisms which show an understanding of the region and the people involved. Obviously, I’m sure that you’re not one of those. Were I to ask you to compare the status and treatment of Christian Arabs within Israel to the treatment of Christians within Egypt I’m sure you could make a detailed analysis without having to scurry around the internet desperately trying to find as many articles on the subject as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/120 "2011-09-18T04:12:31Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Because. Just because. Just because I think that they should all be allowed access. > > Do you have a problem with that? No, but to be brutally honest your response struck me as indicative of the fact that you were unaware that Christians, Jews and Muslims have all had complete access to all the holy sites within Jerusalem for several decades. You even seem to concede that a few posts later. Now, if you know so little about the conflict that you were under the impression that access to sacred religious sites or parts of Jerusalem was prohibited then you should probably endeavor to learn far more about the issue before lecturing the Palestinians and Israelis upon how they should behave. It would be like someone lecturing blacks and whites in the US on how they should treat each other and during the lecture revealing they were unaware of Brown Vs. Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=7)