# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1181 "2013-03-05T22:16:53Z")
I wouldn’t begrudge Israel’s right to put some restrictions on foreign nationals (or quasi-nationals), though I have my personal doubts they’ll lead to any kind of resolution or (at this late date) anyone in the region really _wants_ a resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1182 "2013-03-06T02:05:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > . . . Heck, I’m kind of curious what would happen if the West Bank residents just declared themselves to be a state and attacks on Israel continued. What _does_ (or should) happen when a small state picks a fight with a larger one that it can’t possibly win? Invasion, annexation, the leadership put on trial for war crimes? This! This is one reason I am on the “the sky won’t fall” side in the thread. Having a real government and a real state and some real resources – which could be lost in case of a real war – would tend to make the Palestinian government more responsible. If they become a state, and if Israel withdraws from occupation, and then if the new country continues to attack…Israel rolls right back in again, dismisses the government, annuls Palestinian statehood, and the occupation goes on. This, as a sort of worst-case scenario, only brings us right back to where we are now. It offers the possibility of real progress, as Palestine seeks to build an economy, establishes diplomatic relations worldwide, and in all other ways acts as a real country. It could go reasonably well, overall. It ends the refugee crisis as it provides actual citizenship for the refugees. If Palestine becomes a country, will other neighboring Arab countries maintain an embargo against them? Will Palestinian citizens be allowed to travel freely to Egypt or Jordan? If so, then much progress will have been made; if not, who is to blame? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1183 "2013-03-06T07:49:08Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This is the kind of rationalization I was referring to. It’s brilliant. > > So, according to your fine observation, let me see if I understand. > > Rosa Parks should’ve shut her mouth and go sit in the freakin’ back of the bus – as told and expected – because, the argument goes, there were certainly Blacks in, say, New York were able to sit in the front of the bus. > > Got it! She had no case. You can, of course, point out where in my post I said this was an acceptable state and that Palestinians should just suck it up? Was it after I said “this is definitely segregation” and “kinda sucky”? Because I can’t see the words you seem to be reading in there. > [@](#): > > It seems the only way that this could be considered an apartheid policy is if every single Palestinian was subjected to it and since it’s only a few here and there then it’s just not. It’d be considered an apartheid policy if it distinguished between _all_ Arabs and Jews. Apartheid _means_ something. I used to be fairly cavalier about using it about Israel, but I’ve come to see that it actually doesn’t help matters, it just derails threads into being about the definition of apartheid. Is there a [particular](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion) reason the word “segregation” isn’t good enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1184 "2013-03-06T07:51:25Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It would work great if only humans did not posses ability to look back in history experience and find matching framework – this ability commonly referred to as memory. It seems that there are some who imagine people have less memory than a foam mattress. See, here’s the thing - I know first-hand what actual historical Apartheid was. The situation in Israel sometimes has shades of it, but this? This isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1185 "2013-03-06T08:03:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > We’re not talking about interning Japanese Americans in concentration camps during WWII No, nowhere near as bad, but that is the same ballpark we are in. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1186 "2013-03-06T10:25:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Having a real government and a real state and some real resources – How is the situation in Gaza different from a “real government,” a “real state,” and “real resources”? The main difference I can think of is that “Gaza” is not formally recognized as a state by anyone. But if Gaza were recognized as a state, how would that change anything? Why would you expect Hamas to behave more responsibly? And what about the situation in Judea and Samaria? How is the Palestinian Authority not a “real government,” with a “real state” and “real resources”? The main differences I can think of is that Judea and Samaria are occupied by Israel. If Israel were to pull out, why would you expect the Palestinian Authority to behave more responsibly? > [@](#): > > would tend to make the Palestinian government more responsible. Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Do you have any actual evidence to support your position? Or is it just based on your hopes and wishes? > [@](#): > > If they become a state, and if Israel withdraws from occupation, and then if the new country continues to attack…Israel rolls right back in again, dismisses the government, annuls Palestinian statehood, and the occupation goes on. And Israel is condemned loudly and aggressively all over the world for just like it was when it re-invaded Gaza. > [@](#): > > It ends the refugee crisis as it provides actual citizenship for the refugees. Lol, are you serious? “Palestine” has already announced that the “refugees” would not be given citizenship. Please stop it with the wishful thinking and face reality. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1187 "2013-03-06T15:31:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, nowhere near as bad, but that is the same ballpark we are in. No, it’s not even the same sport. Instituting travel restrictions on foreign nations who one is at war with is 100% different from discriminating against one’s own citizenry based on ethnicity. Trying to equate the two lowers the quality of an argument and trivializes actual instances of governmental racism via juxtaposition with legitimate security concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1188 "2013-03-07T02:43:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > How is the situation in Gaza different from a “real government,” a “real state,” and “real resources”? Well, take Bangladesh, as opposed to “East Pakistan.” By obtaining statehood, they entered into equal-level negotiations with other nations: treaties, ambassadors, trade agreements, etc. > [@](#): > > . . . If Israel were to pull out, why would you expect the Palestinian Authority to behave more responsibly? I think it is a possibility. > [@](#): > > Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Do you have any actual evidence to support your position? . . . Bangladesh, Vietnam, South Africa since the rejection of apartheid, a few other good examples. Also note that I said this is what might happen, not what would happen. The possibility is enough to proceed upon, especially since, if it fails, we haven’t actually lost any ground. We’d be right back where we are now. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1189 "2013-03-07T07:40:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, take Bangladesh, as opposed to “East Pakistan.” By obtaining statehood, they entered into equal-level negotiations with other nations: treaties, ambassadors, trade agreements, etc. Do you agree that there’s nothing stopping Gaza from doing these things in an informal way right now, just like Taiwan does? Anyway, please show me evidence that East Pakistan / Bangladesh started behaving significantly more responsibly as a result of its secession. > [@](#): > > I think it is a possibility. Lol, it’s also a possibility that Alessandra Torresini will call me tomorrow and ask to become my love slave. > [@](#): > > Bangladesh, Vietnam, South Africa since the rejection of apartheid, a few other good examples. Again, please show me evidence that East Pakistan / Bangladesh started behaving significantly more responsibly as a result of its secession and statehood. As far as South Africa goes, you do realize, don’t you, that it had a “real government,” a “real state,” and “real resources” since long before the end of apartheid? And when exactly did Vietnam get a “real government,” a “real state,” and “real resources”? > [@](#): > > Also note that I said this is what might happen, not what would happen. Don’t weasel, you said that it would “tend to make the Palestinian government more responsible.” So far, this claim has not stood up to scrutiny. > [@](#): > > The possibility is enough to proceed upon, especially since, if it fails, we haven’t actually lost any ground. We’d be right back where we are now. I’m not sure who you mean by “we,” but I hope you are not Israeli since Israel has suffered a lot in terms of lost lives, lost resources, terrorized citizens and world condemnation for reasonable self-defense as a result of its pull-out from Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1190 "2013-03-07T08:14:21Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you agree that there’s nothing stopping Gaza from doing these things in an informal way right now, just like Taiwan does?. Is this a serious question? If so, yes there is. It’s a state called Israel which has shown that it is perfectly willing to invade Gaza on the slightest pretext and has exercised vastly more control over Gaza than the PRC has ever attempted to engage in regarding Taiwan. If this was a serious question, I’d recommend stopping by your local library and reading up on the subject. > [@](#): > > Again, please show me evidence that East Pakistan / Bangladesh started behaving significantly more responsibly as a result of its secession and statehood. Er…are you familiar with South Asian history? If so, I’m sure you’re familiar with how after Bangladesh became an independent nation Indians were happy and relations between India and Bangladesh got considerably better. > [@](#): > > And when exactly did Vietnam get a “real government,” a “real state,” and “real resources”? Ok, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this question coming immediately after you demanded to know why Apartheid South Africa wasn’t considered a “real state”? Do you have a preference for states in which a white minority is able to brutalize and oppress a non-white majority? If not, your question makes no sense, since Vietnam has been a real state for decades and remains the only nation in the world to be invaded by the American military and to send said military scurrying back to the US with it’s tail tucked firmly between it’s legs. I’m no fan of the government of Vietnam, but they’ve been a legitimate state since the 1950s and have managed to resist attempted conquests by the Japanese, the French and the Americans, for which they deserve to be saluted. Once again, I’d recommend heading to your local library and reading up on the subject. If you’re interested, I’ll be happy to recommend some books that would help you out. Just ask if you’d like to learn about a part of the world you just passed judgement on. > [@](#): > > Don’t weasel, you said that it would “tend to make the Palestinian government more responsible.” So far, this claim has not stood up to scrutiny. Oh please, I nearly pissed myself laughing at this comment. You’re familiar with the recent history of Iran aren’t you? If not, I assume you’re familiar with the work of Natan Sharansky whom you’ve just strongly implied was a complete moron? Please explain why we should take you more seriously than Natan Sharansky. Have you ever visited Israel and the Occupied territories? Do you speak Arabic and Hebrew or at least one of the two languages? If not, what would make you so arrogant as to lead us to believe you know more than Sharansky? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1191 "2013-03-07T08:34:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > . . . after Bangladesh became an independent nation Indians were happy and relations between India and Bangladesh got considerably better. Yep. That was pretty much my point. > [@](#): > > . . . Vietnam has been a real state for decades and remains the only nation in the world to be invaded by the American military . . . Well, actually, I was thinking of unified Vietnam, which, since the end of the war, has been (with a few exceptions) a fairly placid, staid, and responsible nation. They haven’t been waging war on their neighbors, nor raiding shipping, etc. etc. The unification was what they most wanted, and, obtaining it, they settled down to the business of governing. > [@](#): > > . . . Have you ever visited Israel and the Occupied territories? > > Do you speak Arabic and Hebrew or at least one of the two languages? . . . Well, easy does it: we don’t have to pass these qualifications to have an opinion here. I haven’t been to the region, and I don’t speak the languages, but I’m still going to post, now and then, because I do have opinions. I will never pretend to be an expert on the subject, but, in this light, I limit myself to making comments of the more general variety. My opinion is that Palestine, as a state, would not be any more of a threat to Israel than it is as an occupied territory, and could very possibly be less of a threat, because of the responsibilities of nationhood. They might rise to the responsibility. They might not, and that would be a continuation of the tragedy of the region. But it wouldn’t lead to a situation worse than the one we see today. Statehood would also lead to the end of Israeli settlement building, which many feel would be a positive step toward peace. (One ugly possibility, which I quite dread, is the declaration of statehood – without the drawing of borders! If Palestine should become a nation, but the borders are “disputed” then, alas, I can see some very dire limits to the good that could some of it. But, even there, in the terms of the thread, I don’t think the sky would fall.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1192 "2013-03-07T09:53:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, actually, I was thinking of unified Vietnam, which, since the end of the war, has been (with a few exceptions) a fairly placid, staid, and responsible nation. They haven’t been waging war on their neighbors, nor raiding shipping, etc. etc. Was Vietnam waging war on its neighbors before the Vietnam war? Again my question: When did Vietnam become a “real state” with a “real government” and “real resources”? Just tell me what year it happened so I can scrutinize your claim. As far as Bangladesh goes, please show me evidence that East Pakistan / Bangladesh started behaving significantly more responsibly as a result of its secession. And do you agree that even before Apartheid ended, South Africa was a “real state” with a “real government” and “real resources”? It’s a simple yes or no question. > [@](#): > > The unification was what they most wanted, and, obtaining it, they settled down to the business of governing. Unfortunately, what the Palestinian Arabs most want is for there not to be a Jewish state in the Middle East. They don’t want their own state and never have, except insofar as it puts them closer to their goal of ending Jewish Israel. That’s why they have rejected no less than 4 statehood offers. That’s why their was no serious push for a Palestinian State between 1948 and 1967. And that’s why your plan will not work. > [@](#): > > My opinion is that Palestine, as a state, would not be any more of a threat to Israel than it is as an occupied territory, First of all you are weaseling again. More importantly you are wrong. A Palestinian State would be used for lawfare and rocket attacks against Israel. This claim is based on actual evidence as opposed to wishful thinking. > [@](#): > > Statehood would also lead to the end of Israeli settlement building, which many feel would be a positive step toward peace. Only those who are deluded. Oh, and what is stopping Gaza from informally doing : “treaties, ambassadors, trade agreements, etc.” just like Taiwan does? The answer, of course, is “nothing at all.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1193 "2013-03-07T10:10:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it’s not even the same sport. > Instituting travel restrictions on **foreign nations** who one is **at war with** is 100% different from discriminating against one’s own citizenry based on ethnicity. It’s disingenuous to say Japanese Americans were being discriminated against “based on ethnicity” and ignore the fact that their imagined nationalistic allegiance to , and feared acts of sabotage on behalf of, a\*\* foreign nation, \*\*that the US was **at war** with, was the reason they were interned. Or, if it was purely ethnic discrimination, why it was generally only the West Coast Japanese who got interned, yet so relatively few Hawaiian Japanese were. 100% different, my ass. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1194 "2013-03-07T10:30:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s disingenuous No, it isn’t. What is disingenuous is the silly little game you’re playing. Discriminating against one’s own citizens is not the same as placing travel restrictions on foreign nationals. You’re going to great, and silly, lengths to draw a false equivalence. And, of course, you are still trivializing actual governmental discrimination when you claim that putting travel restrictions on _non-citizen, foreign nationals who are citizens of a country which one is at war with_ is the same as putting one’s own citizens into concentration camps. At the point where you actually argue that _interning your own citizenry in concentration camps is equivalent to saying that foreign nationals who have a habit of blowing themselves up on your buses can’t ride those buses?_" Well, it rapidly becomes readily apparent that your argument is emotional, irrational, and irrelevant. And, naturally, you seized upon the fact that I didn’t add the proper number of caveats to “…based on ethnicity”. I’m sure that for purposes of avoiding obfuscatory nitpicking, I should’ve added… or race, or religion, or…" But, seriously, fuck that noise. Your argument is so weak that it pretty much boils down to “But not all Americans of Japanese heritage were put into concentration camps, so that proves that putting your own citizens into concentration camps is the same sort of thing as saying that foreign nationals of a country you’re at war with will have travel restrictions!” If you don’t have anything cogent to add to the discussion, your contributions can safely be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1195 "2013-03-07T14:24:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s disingenuous to say Japanese Americans were being discriminated against “based on ethnicity” and ignore the fact that their imagined nationalistic allegiance to , and feared acts of sabotage on behalf of, a\*\* foreign nation, \*\*that the US was **at war** with, was the reason they were interned. Or, if it was purely ethnic discrimination, why it was generally only the West Coast Japanese who got interned, yet so relatively few Hawaiian Japanese were. > > 100% different, my ass. The primary difference (and IMHO the decisive one) is that the Japanese who were interred were US citizens. Thus, it is considered highly unjust to suspect them of being ‘more loyal’ to the country of national origin of their ancestors than to their current nation. Some of the sons of the very people interned fought in the US army, and otherwise conspicuously demonstrated their loyalty to the US. The default ought to be, IMHO, that having accepted someone as a citizen they should not be treated as enemy aliens unless they demonstrate actual disloyalty. The Palestinians affected by these measures, in contrast, are not Israeli citizens. There is no expectation by anyone that they should display loyalty to Israel. Now, if Israel enacted such measures against Israeli Arabs, there would be a clear parallel to the US treatment of Japanese-Americans. As it is, there is not. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1196 "2013-03-07T15:11:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s disingenuous to say Japanese Americans were being discriminated against “based on ethnicity” and ignore the fact that their imagined nationalistic allegiance to , and feared acts of sabotage on behalf of, a\*\* foreign nation, \*\*that the US was **at war** with, was the reason they were interned. Or, if it was purely ethnic discrimination, why it was generally only the West Coast Japanese who got interned, yet so relatively few Hawaiian Japanese were. > > 100% different, my ass. > [@Malthus](#): > > The primary difference (and IMHO the decisive one) is that the Japanese who were interred were US citizens. Thus, it is considered highly unjust to suspect them of being ‘more loyal’ to the country of national origin of their ancestors than to their current nation. Some of the sons of the very people interned fought in the US army, and otherwise conspicuously demonstrated their loyalty to the US. The default ought to be, IMHO, that having accepted someone as a citizen they should not be treated as enemy aliens unless they demonstrate actual disloyalty. > > The Palestinians affected by these measures, in contrast, are not Israeli citizens. There is no expectation by anyone that they should display loyalty to Israel. > > Now, if Israel enacted such measures against Israeli Arabs, there would be a clear parallel to the US treatment of Japanese-Americans. As it is, there is not. I agree with **Malthus** , and I would also like to point out that while the interment of Japanese citizens in the US during WWII was not **solely** due to ethnic discrimination, it is telling that American citizens of German ancestry did not, by and large, suffer such inconvenience. So I think it’s fair to infer that there was at least _some_ Ethnic discrimination going on… ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1197 "2013-03-07T15:21:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it isn’t. What is disingenuous is the silly little game you’re playing. > Discriminating against one’s own citizens is not the same as placing travel restrictions on foreign nationals. True, but the justification for the interning if the California Japanese was that they were “foreign nationals”. All of them were citizens of the Japanese Empire. That was also the basis for restrictions put on a number of other “foreign nationals” from Italy and Germany. This was why Joe Dimaggio’s parents were put under curfew and his dad couldn’t use his boat to fish. Furthermore, in addition to the fact that all of the California Japanese being Japanese nationals based on Japanese law, not all were US citizens. Only those born in the US were citizens. Those who were immigrants weren’t allowed to be US citizens because, by law, until 1952, one of the conditions of being naturalized as a US citizen was that you had to be “a free white person.” ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1198 "2013-03-07T16:16:33Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, actually, I was thinking of unified Vietnam, which, since the end of the war, has been (with a few exceptions) a fairly placid, staid, and responsible nation. They haven’t been waging war on their neighbors, nor raiding shipping, etc. etc. The unification was what they most wanted, and, obtaining it, they settled down to the business of governing. Nitpicking, but what’s the SDMB without nitpicking? This isn’t the best example; Vietnam was at war with two of its neighbors within 5 years of unification. Former ally China invaded Vietnam in [1979](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War) in response to Vietnam’s invasion of [Cambodia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian%E2%80%93Vietnamese_War) at the end of 1978 which was the culmination of smaller scale clashes that had been going on since 1975. Vietnam was certainly heavily provoked by the Khmer Rouge, but they did invade and occupy their neighbor until 1989. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1199 "2013-03-07T16:34:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True, but the justification for the interning if the California Japanese was that they were “foreign nationals”. All of them were citizens of the Japanese Empire. You are correct in that the justification was bullshit, and we are justifiably still outraged by our country’s actions because those were American citizens who were oppressed. However, if during WWII we allowed Germans to immigrate to America en masse, but requested that they use separate ships in their ocean crossings, the issue would be far, far different. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > not all were US citizens. I wasn’t aware of that. That makes it more complicated. American citizens are entitled to the full protections and privileges of law, but honestly I’m not quite ready to extend that full benefit to non-citizens. And while putting people into concentration camps is abhorrent, I’m not at all sure I’d find all that much objectionable with deporting non-citizens if there was a _valid_ security concern, preferably only when paired up with individual appraisals/background checks. Of course, since as you say, Japanese immigrants should have been able to earn citizenship and were denied it due to racist immigration/naturalization policies, I’d still say that it was a nauseating episode in American history and the fact that some Japanese Americans weren’t allowed citizenship doesn’t change the fact that they _should have been_, and therefore should have been entitled to the full rights and privileges under law as any other American. /$.02 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/1200 "2013-03-07T16:54:45Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I wasn’t aware of that. That makes it more complicated. [The Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment) claims that 62% of those interned were citizens. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > American citizens are entitled to the full protections and privileges of law, but honestly I’m not quite ready to extend that full benefit to non-citizens. And while putting people into concentration camps is abhorrent, I’m not at all sure I’d find all that much objectionable with deporting non-citizens if there was a _valid_ security concern, preferably only when paired up with individual appraisals/background checks. Of course, since as you say, Japanese immigrants should have been able to earn citizenship and were denied it due to racist immigration/naturalization policies, I’d still say that it was a nauseating episode in American history and the fact that some Japanese Americans weren’t allowed citizenship doesn’t change the fact that they _should have been_, and therefore should have been entitled to the full rights and privileges under law as any other American. The Fifth Amendment protection against deprivation of life, liberty, and property without due process of law; and the Fourteenth Amendment protection of equal protection of the laws; both apply to _persons_, not citizens. On this basis, the internment of even resident aliens was unconstitutional. [This Georgetown Law piece](http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1302&context=facpub&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dlegal%2520protection%2520of%2520resident%2520aliens%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D6%26ved%3D0CE0QFjAF%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fscholarship.law.georgetown.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D1302%2526context%253Dfacpub%26ei%3DdMM4UbCfEezx0wGBwoHQBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNFTSLDRzcTA4mMLVLxf17NrI-Q60w%26bvm%3Dbv.43287494%2Cd.dmQ) explores the points you’ve raised. I don’t find the comparison with separate buses for Palestinians very compelling, as they are neither citizens nor residents of Israel, correct? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=61)