# So Will The Sky Fall If The UN Declare Palestine a State? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182 "2011-09-04T19:54:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/161 "2011-09-19T11:48:43Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why are people so terrified of AIPAC(the Jews) and so convinced that most politicians are terrified of offending them? > > How many people preaching about the power of AIPAC or “THE JEWISH LOBBY!” actually know the named of the head of AIPAC without running to wikipedia? > > Sorry, but I’m always amused by people who are absurdly terrified of the supposed power American Jews and Jewish institutions weild. > [@Huerta88](#): > > No one said they were terrified or “absurdly terrified.” I think it’s a nuisance that on a handful of issues (important ones, admittedly) one voting bloc has near-decisive influence. > > Since I have had a **very** difficult time finding an MSM or right/left wing press article about this topic that does not attribute the Obama Administrations efforts to block the vote to “domestic political considerations” or outright “concern over the Jewish voting bloc in upcoming elections,” (and unless all of those reporters/analysts are closet anti-Semites, which would be inconvenient at best given that some are, well, Jewish), the concept that the Israel lobby is not a major driver here is not one that I’ve seen anyone other than you seriously suggest. If nothing else, why would the Administration be variously described as “desperate” or “scrambling” to hold “emergency” meetings over what’s a more or less symbolic bit of student council deliberations? Indeed, the author of that Al-Jazeera piece is _MJ Rosenberg_, who not only once worked as editor for AIPAC’s newsletter, but later, as an aide to Sen. Carl Levin, [he got to witness firsthand the wrath](http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201105270008) that rains down when any U.S. politician is in any way critical of Israeli policy. ([Here’s a very good must-read followup to that must-read article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/aipac-a-lobby-without-par_b_870943.html), contrasting that early experience with what AIPAC has (d)evolved into.) But if Rosenberg is a bit too extreme for you, _Jeffrey Goldberg_ is a journalist who [makes](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/the-problem-with-the-aipac-conference/37732/) a [lot](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/why-wont-israel-use-the-upcoming-un-vote-to-its-advantage/245108/) of [sense](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-18/palestine-may-win-a-vote-but-won-t-be-a-state-jeffrey-goldberg.html) to me. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/162 "2011-09-19T11:52:39Z")
As I say, maybe the best thing is to recognize a palestinian state. Then the leadership has to actually do something-talk is cheap, actions are hard. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/163 "2011-09-19T13:13:45Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not gross! Getting excited about “fireworks” is at best tacky and extremely insensitive. Can’t wait for the terrorist attacks, they’ll make really awesome TV!!! ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/164 "2011-09-19T13:40:17Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Indeed, the author of that Al-Jazeera piece is _MJ Rosenberg_, who not only once worked as editor for AIPAC’s newsletter, but later, as an aide to Sen. Carl Levin, [he got to witness firsthand the wrath](http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201105270008) that rains down when any U.S. politician is in any way critical of Israeli policy. ([Here’s a very good must-read followup to that must-read article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/aipac-a-lobby-without-par_b_870943.html), contrasting that early experience with what AIPAC has (d)evolved into.) > > But if Rosenberg is a bit too extreme for you, _Jeffrey Goldberg_ is a journalist who [makes](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/the-problem-with-the-aipac-conference/37732/) a [lot](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/why-wont-israel-use-the-upcoming-un-vote-to-its-advantage/245108/) of [sense](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-18/palestine-may-win-a-vote-but-won-t-be-a-state-jeffrey-goldberg.html) to me. These are useful cites and links. When I have made similar points in the past, there’s a whole lot of resistance going on, to what is almost irrefutable. Why is that do you think? Come to think of it, the American prohibition on discussing why there are special rules for Israel has infected even this board. I wish they’d relax that rule. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/165 "2011-09-19T13:56:14Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] … If you believe that all the Arabs want is their own (23rd) state … [/QUOTE] Please explain the 23 number. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/166 "2011-09-19T14:32:47Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Come to think of it, the American prohibition on discussing why there are special rules for Israel has infected even this board. I wish they’d relax that rule. AIPAC website has it all clearly spelled out why – > [@AIPAC](#): > > Commitment to democracy, the rule of law, freedom of religion and speech and human rights are all core values shared between the United States and Israel. Is there anything more truthful that the above? Not even Canada comes this close :o It’s the money in all its forms. Simply put, US Government is the service for foreign rulers, both “evil” ones and “angel” that offers verbal, written and weapon-assisted influence for foreign rulers to get things done. The more money you invest, more value you can expect. AIPAC simply is not ashamed to invest much, much more than all the others. Average Joes cares about the job and Wall Mart prices. Beyond that, nah - unless, of course, Joe happens to be Evangelist b/c an Evangelist has a meekly delusional interest in making sure all Jews are in Israel, “secure”. Just one simple example – AIPAC takes credit from ensuring that in these “turbulent” times when US is cutting services left and right and trying to reduce debt, they made sure that three point something billions goes untouched. I mean, you would expect them not to at least brag about it. Or, to be even more rational, “allow” for a symbolic cut as their BFF is trying to get of the hole. It’s all actually quite bizarre. All in all, I don’t think there’s prohibition on discussing this as much as sincere bewilderment of legislative body along the lines of “How’s us doing what we are paid to do strange to you?” ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/167 "2011-09-19T14:40:34Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Well, there’s the thing about how if it isn’t the government doing it then is it really the government’s fault and hence could you really wage war against that country? It isn’t really a state then…is it? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/168 "2011-09-19T14:44:08Z")
I’m not sure why felt the need to highlight the names “Rosenberg” and “Goldberg”. Were you trying to argue that criticism of AIPAC must be legitimate if Jews are doing it. Moreover, you don’t help your case by citing Jeffrey Goldberg. He has ridiculed people for exaggerating and misunderstanding AIPAC. The article where he criticizes them is for closely aligning with the political right in the US. Now, no one would deny that AIPAC is influential nor that they don’t engage in the demonization games or pressure tactics that all lobbies engage in. However, there are lots of lobbies that are vastly more powerful, most notably the AARP. For that matter, nobody talks about how powerful the Cuban-American lobby is yet not that long ago, they forced the PM of Israel to call up a US Congresswoman and grovel before her after he praised Fidel Castro’s condemning anti-Semitism. > [@voltaire](#): > > Indeed, the author of that Al-Jazeera piece is _MJ Rosenberg_, who not only once worked as editor for AIPAC’s newsletter, but later, as an aide to Sen. Carl Levin, [he got to witness firsthand the wrath](http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201105270008) that rains down when any U.S. politician is in any way critical of Israeli policy. ([Here’s a very good must-read followup to that must-read article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/aipac-a-lobby-without-par_b_870943.html), contrasting that early experience with what AIPAC has (d)evolved into.) > > But if Rosenberg is a bit too extreme for you, _Jeffrey Goldberg_ is a journalist who [makes](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2010/03/the-problem-with-the-aipac-conference/37732/) a [lot](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/why-wont-israel-use-the-upcoming-un-vote-to-its-advantage/245108/) of [sense](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-18/palestine-may-win-a-vote-but-won-t-be-a-state-jeffrey-goldberg.html) to me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/169 "2011-09-19T14:47:45Z")
I’ve resisted commenting on most of the counter-factual nonsense here, but between your italicizing Jewish names (gotta have Token Jews to shore up a position, after all) and your rather bizarre errors, I might as well comment. > [@voltaire](#): > > Indeed, the author of that Al-Jazeera piece is _MJ Rosenberg_, who not only once worked as editor for AIPAC’s newsletter, but later, as an aide to Sen. Carl Levin, [he got to witness firsthand the wrath](http://politicalcorrection.org/fpmatters/201105270008) that rains down when any U.S. politician is in any way critical of Israeli policy. The… “wrath”. “Wrath” that “rains down”. Truly chilling! Wait, let’s look at what actually happened, shall we? Levin, along with 29 other senators, many of whom were staunch supporters of Israeli policy, wrote a letter criticizing Likud in a specific political situation. This criticism was, in fact, endorsed by the head of AIPAC. And when there was a negative reaction to it, it didn’t come from “The Lobby”, but rather, in Rosenberg’s own words "from outraged donors, constituents, and “pro-Israel” organizations. ". Sounds like a pretty broad base, there. Then an Israeli governmental official came to Levin’s office and made some sort of un-named threats… at which point he was thrown out by Levin’s chief of staff. The US president’s reaction at the time was to, well, praise Levin. The conclusion? > [@](#): > > And that was that. Nothing more happened with the Letter of 30, except that after the vicious attacks on Levin, few senators have challenged the Israeli government or AIPAC since. And this is the picture of “wrath” that “rains down” on the US government and keeps them cowed and in line? Are you joking? Just how serious was the backlash against Levin, in Rosenbarg’s own words? “since then he has been re-elected four times.” Will, at least a language columnist at the Times got all upset. Rosenberg tells us that Safire was “the most influential New York Times columnist”, so now we know for sure that The Lobby is a true leviathan of influence and power, they can wrap your knuckles for a dangling participle! > [@voltaire](#): > > ([Here’s a very good must-read followup to that must-read article](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/aipac-a-lobby-without-par_b_870943.html), contrasting that early experience with what AIPAC has (d)evolved into.) Surely, this is the red meat we’ve all been waiting for, that will reveal the overbearing, possibly perfidious influence of AIPAC and will reveal, one and for all, what the true issue is. > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, it was the more moderate AIPAC that went off on Sen. Levin for having the temerity to call on Shamir to remain committed to UN Resolution 242. It was the more moderate AIPAC that organized threatening calls to Levin (and other senators who signed his letter) by outraged donors. It was the more moderate AIPAC that enlisted Israel’s U.N. ambassador, Binyamin Netanyahu, to call New York Times columnist William Safire and urge him to threaten me. (Safire’s call was no simple call by a reporter investigating a story; it was a call by a powerful media figure threatening a Jewish congressional staffer for not toeing the line.) Which, as we’ve learned, were tactics so diabolical and lethally effective that Levin was re-elected… four times. But, certainly, you’ve got some some evidence squirrled away somewhere. Rosenberg, of course, assures us that AIPAC is simply a puppet of the Israeli government… except when they’re not. > [@](#): > > It is as independent of the Israeli government as the U.S. Communist Party was independent of Moscow. (The only time this was not true was in the early 1990s when Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin tried, and failed, to reduce AIPAC’s influence). Well, surely Rosenberg has some sort of proof of the dastardly, overbearing impact AIPAC has, right? > [@](#): > > And: Four, AIPAC’s effort to squelch Senate dissent succeeded. I remember one of AIPAC’s top lobbyists telling me to thank Levin for the letter. “You’ll see, MJ, after what Levin went through, no senator will ever pull that kind of thing again. You did us a favor,” she said. > > And, guess what? No senator has, not in 23 years. Well, that’s at least an actual claim. It’s one based on the fallacy of Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc, but it’s a claim at least. Let’s check on it, shall we? Hrm… [not only did a senator criticize Israel right after that fateful non-event, but he later became the Republican presidential candidate.](http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-05-09/news/9002070192_1_dole-largest-aid-recipients-foreign-aid) [Hrm… but US presidents remain uncowed?](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/12/world/bush-under-fire-in-congress-for-criticizing-israel.html)? And their administrations? [Is that Ms. Clinton criticizing Israel?](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/09/us-palestinians-israel-idUSTRE70834K20110109) Isn’t The Lobby supposed to stop that sort of thing? Is their mojo limited to Congress, then? Or is it, perhaps, as Rosenberg himself tells us, that donors, constituents and lobbying groups all have a very strong point of view and will make it known if their representatives displease them? Could it be that public opinion has, consistently, stayed on Israel’s side and Americans tend to see the Palestinian government and/or factions in a negative light? That groups ranging from donors to Jewish groups to pro-Israel groups to think tanks to lobbying groups to Christian fundamentalists all support Israel with a passion and dedication that is largely absent in their political opponents in the US? Nah. Must be AIPAC. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/170 "2011-09-19T17:50:10Z")
…in case your wishes should come true! Link:[Subscribe to read | Financial Times](http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/0e21ea0a-dfe2-11e0-a820-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1YKrF0Kx3) I had forgotten that Obama did call for a Palestinian state-guess he kinda regrets that speech, now. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/171 "2011-09-19T22:30:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The Turkish tactic of moving ethnically Turkish “settlers” onto “Turkish” Cypus (an entity that only Turkey acknowleges) to take over properties deserted by Greek Cypriots displaced by the Turkish invasion of half of the island is probably roughly comparable to the Palestinian issue with Israeli “settlers”, though. I guess in as much as the two governments maintained policies that enhanced immigration of settlers to these respective regions. I doubt there are too many more points of comparison though considering Greek Cyprus is a sovereign nation. Thanks for bringing it up, I’d never thought about it before except when one of my friends, who had lived on N.Cyprus, stated that the natives were annoyed at the immigration. > [@Malthus](#): > > Indeed, what many are missing is that this whole affair really has as much (or more) to do with Cypus (which the Turks care about materially) than Gaza (which the Turks have little other than emotional interest in). Although I understand it. I think it is impossible to separate the two motivations, since the latest turn in the decline of Israeli-Turkish relations means that the Turkish Navy helps in Gaza blockade running and their annoyance over the gas deal. The thread between them is diplomatic pressure on Israel and establishing themselves as the strongest in the Mideast. > [@Malthus](#): > > What really brought the Turkish reaction to a head was Israel’s deal with Cypus over natural gas eploration, a deal which blocks Turkish ambitions in the area: > [http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11253/1173724-82-0.stm](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11253/1173724-82-0.stm)… > It is mighty convenient for Turkey to fulminate about Gaza. But their beef with Israel is more about their own interests, not those of Gazans. That’s clear and that is why I am impressed overall. Erdogan/Davutoglu/AKP has been trying to establish good relations with their neighbors and to use that peace to become leaders in the mideast. This should benefit Turkey economically and in terms of security. Many of their initiatives have been a failure, but more recently they’ve played their cards well and Turkey as a nation is benefiting from it. Also, their policies benefit the West in general. Perhaps, being an American, it’s just fun to watch politicians who actually get something done for a change. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/172 "2011-09-20T00:23:12Z")
* * * > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I guess in as much as the two governments m\*\*\*\*aintained policies that enhanced immigration of settlers to these respective regions. I doubt there are too many more points of comparison though considering Greek Cyprus is a sovereign nation. Thanks for bringing it up, I’d never thought about it before except when one of my friends, who had lived on N.Cyprus, stated that the natives were annoyed at the immigration. > > Although I understand it. I think it is impossible to separate the two motivations, since the latest turn in the decline of Israeli-Turkish relations means that the Turkish Navy helps in Gaza blockade running and their annoyance over the gas deal. > > The thread between them is diplomatic pressure on Israel and establishing themselves as the strongest in the Mideast. > > That’s clear and that is why I am impressed overall. Erdogan/Davutoglu/AKP has been trying to establish good relations with their neighbors and to use that peace to become leaders in the mideast. This should benefit Turkey economically and in terms of security. Many of their initiatives have been a failure, but more recently they’ve played their cards well and Turkey as a nation is benefiting from it. > > Also, their policies benefit the West in general. Perhaps, being an American, it’s just fun to watch politicians who actually get something done for a change. Im confused. “Peace activists” with some toys and broken medical supplies sail to Gaza AGAIN to break a legal blockade, attack soldiers, refuse to hand ‘aid’ over to be inspected and delivered (it was later confiscated ), Erdogan throws a fit and you’re ‘proud’? Turkey is acting more reckless than Israel. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/173 "2011-09-20T00:49:29Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m not sure why felt the need to highlight the names “Rosenberg” and “Goldberg”. Were you trying to argue that criticism of AIPAC must be legitimate if Jews are doing it. It was in context of responding to **Huerta88** when he said: > [@Huerta88](#): > > Since I have had a **very** difficult time finding an MSM or right/left wing press article about this topic that does not attribute the Obama Administrations efforts to block the vote to “domestic political considerations” or outright “concern over the Jewish voting bloc in upcoming elections,” (and unless all of those reporters/analysts are closet anti-Semites, which would be inconvenient at best given that some are, well, Jewish), the concept that the Israel lobby is not a major driver here is not one that I’ve seen anyone other than you seriously suggest. Which was itself a response to when you said: > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Why are people so terrified of AIPAC(the Jews) and so convinced that most politicians are terrified of offending them? > > How many people preaching about the power of AIPAC or “THE JEWISH LOBBY!” actually know the named of the head of AIPAC without running to wikipedia? > > Sorry, but I’m always amused by people who are absurdly terrified of the supposed power American Jews and Jewish institutions weild. So I don’t think pointing out two Jewish Americans who know a heck of a lot more about the issues than I do, (and are intimately familiar with AIPAC and it’s _modus operandi_) is out of place in that context. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Moreover, you don’t help your case by citing Jeffrey Goldberg. He has ridiculed people for exaggerating and misunderstanding AIPAC. > > The article where he criticizes them is for closely aligning with the political right in the US. Which gets us to the real heart of the matter. You say I don’t help my case by citing Goldberg, but I disagree. Because my criticism of AIPAC has to do with their right-wing agenda, and not any anti-Semitic fear of the political power of The Jews, as you infer. I simply agree more with J-Street’s approach to the issues than I do AIPAC’s. > [@](#): > > Now, no one would deny that AIPAC is influential nor that they don’t engage in the demonization games or pressure tactics that all lobbies engage in. > > However, there are lots of lobbies that are vastly more powerful, most notably the AARP. > > For that matter, nobody talks about how powerful the Cuban-American lobby is yet not that long ago, they forced the PM of Israel to call up a US Congresswoman and grovel before her after he praised Fidel Castro’s condemning anti-Semitism. Nobody talks about how powerful the Cuban-American lobby is? Seriously? I disagree completely. Now granted, the issue of Castro and Cuba is a smaller and more dormant issue relative to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. But come on, you don’t really believe that no one is critical of the Cuban-American lobby, do you? Speaking of which, do you think those critical of the Cuban-American lobby are anti-Cuban, or just weary of their right-wing agenda and the power they wield to influence wrong-headed American foreign policy? (Interestingly, Goldberg was also at the center of that Cuban issue, as he was the one who was interviewing Castro when he made his comments criticizing Iran and anti-Semitism. He also received considerable criticism from the Cuban-American lobby for that interview.) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/174 "2011-09-20T00:53:13Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > As I say, maybe the best thing is to recognize a palestinian state. Then the leadership has to actually do something-talk is cheap, actions are hard. Can you give a specific example of how this might work? What specifically would the leadership be required to do which it is not now? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/175 "2011-09-20T01:59:03Z")
Apropos of the recent bit: [ > [@](#): > > The storyline is older than the modern state of Israel. Reporters portray American Jews as parochially fixated on Israel and ask: Will the issue help Republicans win support from the rare affluent group that votes Democratic? > > The answer is no. There’s a round of these articles every presidential cycle, and the answer is the same every time. Obama will likely perform worse with Jews in 2012 than in 2008. But that’s because he’ll likely perform worse with nearly everyone. > > President Obama has more support today among Jews than Hispanics, youth, college graduates, Easterners, moderates and secular voters, according to Gallup data. Yet the polar storyline endures in major media outlets. New York Times front-page headline: “Seeing Ripple in Jewish Vote.” CNN headline: “How can President Obama save the Jewish vote?” Politico headline: “Obama slips with Jews.” And that was only on Thursday. > > Obama has merely slipped onto a familiar floor. His support among Americans is at a low-point. Thus Jewish support has declined as well. Yet the trend is not new. Gallup tracked that same floor in Jewish support in July, August and November 2010. > > This Jewish news is therefore old news. > […] > But American Jews don’t vote on Israel. A majority of Jews, like Americans overall, said the economy was their top issue, according to two polls by Gerstein in 2010. Israel ranked near the bottom. Only about a tenth of Jews named Israel as their top issue. That does not mean Jews adore Obama’s Middle East policy. Gerstein found that seven in 10 Jews agree with Obama’s Israel policies but half of them disagreed with his “execution.” > > But the ties that bind remain far stronger than those that fray. There is a relative consensus, compared to Western Europe, among the two-major U.S. parties on Israel. Obama has had his share of controversial rhetoric and gestures, from the Israeli perspective. But the Obama administration is currently fighting a backroom battle, against great odds, to keep the United Nations from upending the peace process and declaring Palestine a state. The old alliance endures. > > Americans want it that way. About six in 10 Americans said in 2010 they were more sympathetic to the Israelis than Palestinians. It roughly matched the largest share in more than two decades of Gallup polling. In 2005, Gallup found that 52 percent of Americans said the same. By comparison, only about a quarter of the British agreed. > > The anti-Israel fervor of the European left is found only on the fringes of the American left. ]([http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/09/obama-doesnt-have-a-jewish-problem-he-has-a-people-problem/245250/](http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/09/obama-doesnt-have-a-jewish-problem-he-has-a-people-problem/245250/)) ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/176 "2011-09-20T04:01:29Z")
Goldberg may be influential in his commentary-slash-sometimes-journalism, but it doesn’t me he’s always correct. And just because you can cite a few things he says does not mean he’s going to agree with your perspective. Today, he called the Palestinian plan [symbolic and counterproductive](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-18/palestine-may-win-a-vote-but-won-t-be-a-state-jeffrey-goldberg.html) - not to mention downright nasty. > [@](#): > > The True Goal > > What, then, is Abbas’s true goal? It may be nothing more than an attempt to ensure his legacy, or to marginalize rivals like Fayyad. But he recently said something revealing: “We are going to complain that as Palestinians we have been under occupation for 63 years.” > > The occupation, as it is generally understood, did not begin 63 years ago. Israel conquered the West Bank and Gaza 44 years ago. Sixty-three years ago is when Israel itself was founded. If Abbas’s goal at the UN is the enfranchisement of his people, then he will not succeed. If his goal to demonize and delegitimize his enemy, then he very well might. East Jerusalem in Palestinian hands? [Evict Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_%28Jerusalem%29)? Knock down synagogues? Restrict access to Judaism’s [holiest site](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Western_Wall)? Let Arabs [build latrines on Jewish graves](http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/desintro.html) again? Never. You’d have to take Israel down first. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/177 "2011-09-20T04:34:41Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > * * * > > Im confused. “Peace activists” with some toys and broken medical supplies sail to Gaza AGAIN to break a legal blockade, attack soldiers, refuse to hand ‘aid’ over to be inspected and delivered (it was later confiscated ), Erdogan throws a fit and you’re ‘proud’? Turkey is acting more reckless than Israel. Could you please provide a link to this? It sounds like you are talking about last year but also about something that happened this year and it leaves me confused. I am proud of them. They’ve put themselves on more even ground with the USA, they have reduced their relations with the current government of Israel while turning their ineffective and fruitless relationship with Israel into a productive relationship with countries throughout the middle east. They have not lost standing with NATO while doing so. Erdogan is the most popular leader in the middle east. His words are inspiring the Arab Spring countries to not only follow democratic principles, but to establish secular governments. He saw a need for leadership and stepped into it. Now the middle east is going to be most profoundly affected by a stable democratic western-leaning government - not Iran or Saudi Arabia. As a Westerner what would you prefer as 3 countries, possibly 4, rid themselves of their dictators and adopt new forms of government and new attitudes toward the world around them? Which? Turkey, Iran, or Saudi Arabia? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/178 "2011-09-20T05:09:07Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Goldberg may be influential in his commentary-slash-sometimes-journalism, but it doesn’t me he’s always correct. And just because you can cite a few things he says does not mean he’s going to agree with your perspective. Today, he called the Palestinian plan [symbolic and counterproductive](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-18/palestine-may-win-a-vote-but-won-t-be-a-state-jeffrey-goldberg.html) - not to mention downright nasty. Since I’m the one who mentioned Goldberg, I assume you’re addressing me. Except that article you linked and quoted is a very bad example for you to cite as him saying things I supposedly disagree with, since I linked that very same article while saying how much sense it made. But I understand the confusion a moderate viewpoint can cause in this sort of ideological debate. Goldberg himself often gets it from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/179 "2011-09-20T06:28:42Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I am proud of them. They’ve put themselves on more even ground with the USA, they have reduced their relations with the current government of Israel while turning their ineffective and fruitless relationship with Israel into a productive relationship with countries throughout the middle east. They have not lost standing with NATO while doing so. Erdogan is the most popular leader in the middle east. His words are inspiring the Arab Spring countries to not only follow democratic principles, but to establish secular governments. He saw a need for leadership and stepped into it. Now the middle east is going to be most profoundly affected by a stable democratic western-leaning government - not Iran or Saudi Arabia. As a Westerner what would you prefer as 3 countries, possibly 4, rid themselves of their dictators and adopt new forms of government and new attitudes toward the world around them? Which? Turkey, Iran, or Saudi Arabia? I’m all for Turkey serving as a beacon of democracy in the Middle East - I just don’t see why they feel the need to do it at Israel’s expense. It’s not a zero-sum game, you know. Israel has a lot to offer its neighbors, and bringing it into the fold will support democracy a lot more than turning it a cold shoulder will. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182/180 "2011-09-20T15:00:03Z")
As always, leave it to The New Yorker to strike a balance and shape random thoughts into a coherent argument: > [@](#): > > Arguments about statehood are, in any event, just a proxy for arguments about power and justice. In that respect, the case for Palestine is compelling. Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, Palestinian leaders have been told repeatedly that if they organized themselves peacefully and negotiated in good faith with Israel they would win statehood. Their performance has often disappointed: Yasir Arafat eschewed a deal with Israel in 2000; Hamas has persistently launched indiscriminate attacks and broadcast anti-Semitism. Yet, under the Palestinian Authority’s sway, the West Bank now resembles a legitimate state more closely than at any time since 1967. Two years ago, under Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, the Authority embarked on a building-and-reform program to improve governance. Its security forces still mete out abuses, but Palestinian leaders have delivered on many of their pledges. In April, a World Bank committee affirmed that the Authority is “well-positioned for the establishment of a state at any point in the near future.” Read more [http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/09/26/110926taco\_talk\_coll#ixzz1YVMEoXfJ](http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2011/09/26/110926taco_talk_coll#ixzz1YVMEoXfJ) I have nothing to add. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-will-the-sky-fall-if-the-un-declare-palestine-a-state/595182.md?page=10)