# So...without a heat source, would people up north freeze to death in the house? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 28, 2005, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431 "2005-12-28T11:54:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/21 "2005-12-28T19:07:31Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > So: 1) how do you survive when there’s an electric blackout after a storm? > And: 2) how did your grandparents survive in your city, say, 95 years ago? Well, we have the thermostat set very low, enough to keep the pipes from freezing and heat with a wood stove. About the only difference that happens when the power goes out [other than lots of swearing] is being pissed because we cant pump water and a reversion to one of several actions : melting water on the woodstove to use to flush and wash. buying water by the gallon to flush and wash. and we have to be a bit more careful not to get chilled as our pump, furnace and heater system does not work without 220 v electricity and our generator only does 110v. ```auto We have a propane fired eutetic water heater we use at the Pennsic wars to make hot water to shower and wash dishes with. I suppose we could buy another one to keep here, just basically have to premelt enough water for the showers and then we'd have a nice shower instead of a japanese style 'dip' shower [you use a small pot to dip water out and pour it over yourself] as we never seem to have a shower bag handy. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/22 "2005-12-28T19:54:09Z")
The main thing to do is to construct a new sleeping area instead of sleeping on a bed in the middle of a large room. You’d take the bed, wall it off, put in a roof about 3 feet higher than the mattress, and pile old clothes, branches, hay bales, or whatever you’ve got all around and under it, heck, even SNOW makes good insulation. Everyone sleeps in the same bed under as many blankets as you can get. Bring housebroken dogs in with you too. In real life Eskimos made snow block igloos to keep warm, the only external heat source would be a small oil lamp and body heat. The trouble is keeping the interior heat down to 32F. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/23 "2005-12-28T20:00:00Z")
Your body needs adequate nutrition to heat itself, so if you’re talking about extended time periods below freezing, that’s when things get dicey. In subzero environments, what kind of edible food can you forage, and what kind of food can you eat without heating? There’d be a lot of hunting going on (and how are the animals surviving?), and you’d have to assume some stockpiling of dry foods in the summer. Which leads to the problem of drinking water… where does that come from in a prolonged freezing environment? There would have to be a deep well or freshwater spring somewhere in the vicinity. So I’d say living in subzero temps for more than, say 6 weeks, without at least heat for cooking food and melting snow is a no-go. ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/24 "2005-12-29T03:59:18Z")
> [@Brain Wreck](#): > > There’d be a lot of hunting going on (and how are the animals surviving?) You might want to think about that question a bit more. . . ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/25 "2005-12-29T04:40:32Z")
I’ve given this some thought myself, and for food one can have many cans of beans, fruit, and vegetables. Would one turn the water off in the house? ---
**Author:** ![Klaatu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Klaatu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Klaatu)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/26 "2005-12-29T04:47:33Z")
This seems a good thread to link to a very well written article about actually freezing to death. [http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0197/9701fefreez.html](http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0197/9701fefreez.html) ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/27 "2005-12-29T12:55:32Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > People have survived cobbeling together crude fireplaces for centuries and somehow survived - up to code does not equal you will die or your house will burn down. I admit that many don’t have the best skills on emergency home heating and there will be accidents early on, but people will learn. No. This isn’t what I was talking about, and it doesn’t have anything to do with what I was saying. My house doesn’t have a fireplace. That means it doesn’t have a chimney. That means it doesn’t have any good way to get rid of the fumes created by burning wood. Even if I decided to crack a window, I’m not metallurgist enough to build a Frankin stove or similar sufficient to keep me warm without suffocating me. Nor do I have the metal or tools even if I were. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/28 "2005-12-29T13:28:48Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > My house doesn’t have a fireplace. That means it doesn’t have a chimney. That means it doesn’t have any good way to get rid of the fumes created by burning wood. Even if I decided to crack a window, I’m not metallurgist enough to build a Frankin stove or similar sufficient to keep me warm without suffocating me. Nor do I have the metal or tools even if I were. Some houses didn’t have chimneys back in the day, what they had was a hole in the ceiling for the smoke to rise out of. I’m, sure you could manage that one in a pinch 😉 Also most homes in these climates burn oil or gas for heat, which means that there is a chimney (though HE modern furnaces use plastic chimneys) already. It may not be in the best place in your house, but the materials are there. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/29 "2005-12-29T13:47:04Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > I’ve given this some thought myself, and for food one can have many cans of beans, fruit, and vegetables. Would one turn the water off in the house? If it’s prolonged sub-zero temps, and there is no heat, then yes, the water is effectively turned off (frozen). As are your beans, fruit, and vegetables. All frozen. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/30 "2005-12-29T13:47:15Z")
I paid for electric heat in my last apartment. One very cold winter I had high dental bills and simply couldn’t afford high electric bills. I got through somehow. After that, I rarely put the heat on if the outside temp was above 20 degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/31 "2005-12-29T14:12:31Z")
Well, the thing about Derleth’s situation is people living in that area would never be without the skills to keep them warm like he is now. They’d live in houses with chimneys and they’d also have better skills at dealing with winter without niceties like electricity and such. However, I’m still confident that Derleth could probably survive in a pinch. But still, assuming no heat source at all is unrealistic as people would burn wood in chimneys and if they didn’t have a chimney they’d fashion one or they would try to travel to another home where they were more prepared. In New England there is little question you can survive the winter without much heat if you have to, during the colonial siege of Boston in 1776 the British in Boston were running very short on wood, and had to destroy homes to make kindling (Boston was blockaded by land and American privateers were doing a good job of keeping the supplies out.) And some British soldiers died while on their posts via freezing to death, most of them survived though. Anyways Derleth if you’re interested in finding out how people survived winters in Montana without modern niceties you could just research how one of the major Indian tribes that lived in that area did things centuries ago. Also according to the National Weather Service the lowest temperature ever recorded in the Havre area was -45 F. Montana is pretty brutal in the winter but it isn’t quite as bad a picture as you paint. ---
**Author:** ![VernWinterbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c67d28/32.png) [@VernWinterbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VernWinterbottom)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/32 "2005-12-29T14:20:27Z")
> [@Brain Wreck](#): > > If it’s prolonged sub-zero temps, and there is no heat, then yes, the water is effectively turned off (frozen). As are your beans, fruit, and vegetables. All frozen. I can eat a popsicle. Why can’t I eat frozen canned fruit? Cooking makes some things easier to eat and digest. It also kills off some unwanted baddies, but AFAIK humans are the only creatures on earth that warm up their food before eating it. It’s not actually necessary for basic survival. Actually, if you dig a hole below the frost line (only 18 or so inches where I live, but YMMV.) you’ll have a great place to store your food above freezing. This was often done in the old days. “Cellars” weren’t the under story of the house. Root cellars and the like were deep pits where potatoes, carrots, apples, etc. were stored all winter. You could live down there, too. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/33 "2005-12-29T15:14:46Z")
Well, I knew I was going to get those temperature numbers wrong. No arguments about that. As for a hole in the roof: I still have a feeling that would not work as well as it ‘should’, especially in a house with high ceilings in the modern style. That is, I don’t know if I could convince all of the dangerous fumes to refrain from going sideways instead of straight up and out the hole. I’m sure I could fashion something out of cheap metal and plastic siding if it came right down to the line, but my main point is and always has been that building a fire, the obvious solution to this conundrum, is neither easy nor very practical in a house not designed for wood heat. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/34 "2005-12-29T15:20:34Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > As for a hole in the roof: I still have a feeling that would not work as well as it ‘should’, especially in a house with high ceilings in the modern style. That is, I don’t know if I could convince all of the dangerous fumes to refrain from going sideways instead of straight up and out the hole. Plains indians made this work reasonably well in a teepee made of buffalo hide (rather high ‘ceiling’). ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/35 "2005-12-29T15:24:57Z")
I have friends in the Bancroft, Ontario area, where it reaches -35C at night during the winter. They live in a passive-solar-heated house that is the Ferrari of heat capture during the winter: it requires NO furnace. Big windows tilted to capture the winter sun’s light and heat, thick walls to store the heat, insulation on the outside to slow down the heat escaping. They have a woodstove, but that’s to cook on. I personally slept once in the unfinished uninsulated house when it was only two rooms with windows, capturing the sun’s heat. It was -35C outside. The temperature never dropped below 6C inside. All I needed was a big pile of blankets. It _is_ possible. You just have to design the house for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/36 "2005-12-29T16:46:10Z")
> [@VernWinterbottom](#): > > I can eat a popsicle. Why can’t I eat frozen canned fruit? The trouble with eating frozen food, and eating snow for water, is that it’s going to chill you terribly. You’re going to lose a lot of heat that way. As for a chimney, you can get quite a lot of heat out of a very very small fire, especially if you’re only trying to heat a very small insulated room. Don’t think about a roaring fireplace, think about a candle or an oil lamp. People burn candles all the time without worrying about ventilation. If you really need more heat you can have a large fire outside, then shovel hot coals into a metal pan with a lid and bring it into your insulated room. Or heat up rocks in the outside fire and bring them inside. Or you could just get yourself a woodstove, poke a hole in wall, and run the chimney outside, just make sure the top of the chimney is higher than the ceiling inside the house. The trouble with regular fireplaces or a fire in the middle of the floor with a hole in the ceiling for ventilation is that almost all the warm air from the fire is going to go up the chimney with the smoke, and cold air from outside is going to be drawn into the house to replace it. It’s a very inefficient use of fuel. The most efficient way to use fuel is to construct a brick bed like they use in Tibet or northern China. You get a wood stove and create a brick platform on top of it, then put the family bed on top of the brick platform. The woodstove heats the bricks, which radiate heat to the people in the bed. Very efficient, you only need a very small fire which is important if there’s not much wood or cow dung for fuel. The fire doesn’t have to be kept going all the time, since the bricks cool off very slowly. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/37 "2005-12-29T17:10:01Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > It _is_ possible. You just have to design the house for it. We have a passive solar house waaaayyyyy way up in the mountains. Between the incredibly bright sun, and the reflection off the snow, it’ll get up to around 100 degrees inside some days. Gotta open the windows. It’s not that well insulated however, so we heat with a propane stove at night (used to do wood). Don’t bother heating the bedroom, stays warm enough with a blanket and quilt. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/38 "2005-12-29T17:24:03Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The trouble with eating frozen food, and eating snow for water, is that it’s going to chill you terribly. You’re going to lose a lot of heat that way. The “eat cold stuff diet” has been covered on this board before. You are comparing the calroies of specific heat to the [kilocalories](http://www.healthyeatingclub.com/info/books-phds/books/foodfacts/html/data/data2a.html)that food energy is measured with. Being cold and eating cold food is unpleasant to be sure but won’t be the direct cause of your demise. 12 oz or 355ml of coca cola has [abut 155 kc](http://www.annecollins.com/calories/calories-coca-cola.htm) of food energy. Density is a bit higher than fresh water due to dissolved solids but let’s round up to 400 grams of frozen coke that needs to be warmed to body temperature of 37ºC after you eat it. 400x37=14,800 calories Subtract that from the 155 **thousand** calories in the coke and you’re still coming out far ahead of the game. God I love it when it pays off that I paid attention in physics once in a while. My own cold weather anecdote is from the last year I lived in Havre, Montana. I had an upstairs apartment in a 20’s era building that wasn’t well insulated when it was refurbushed. That combined with electric baseboard heat wasn’t enough to maintain temp during a cold snap where temp remained colder than -40º for three days straight. I closed off the bedroom to save heat and slept in a sleeping bag in my clothes with my cat. I left the bathroom door open but the toilet bowl froze over after the second day. I moved back to Arizona that spring. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/39 "2005-12-29T17:34:28Z")
> [@VernWinterbottom](#): > > I can eat a popsicle. Why can’t I eat frozen canned fruit? It’s the same reason people aren’t supposed to hydrate themselves with snow. If you have no external heat, and you’re in a cold environment, there’s a risk of inducing hypothermia at some point. > [@](#): > > Cooking makes some things easier to eat and digest. It also kills off some unwanted baddies, but AFAIK humans are the only creatures on earth that warm up their food before eating it. It’s not actually necessary for basic survival. I’m not talking about cooking, just talking about thawing. AFAIK humans are also the only animals who will try to eat frozen food. > [@](#): > > Actually, if you dig a hole below the frost line (only 18 or so inches where I live, but YMMV.) you’ll have a great place to store your food above freezing. This was often done in the old days. “Cellars” weren’t the under story of the house. Root cellars and the like were deep pits where potatoes, carrots, apples, etc. were stored all winter. You could live down there, too. Well, that’s a potential solution there. I didn’t consider that. I guess in this scenario there would be quite a bit of burrowing going on. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431/40 "2005-12-29T17:57:18Z")
Yes, I recognize the difference between calories and Kcal. What you’re neglecting is the heat of fusion. Your values only show how much energy it would take to bring LIQUID 0C coca-cola to 37C. There isn’t a smooth curve from -1C ice to 0C ice to 0C water to 1C water. It takes a lot more energy to change 0C ice to 0C water than it does to move from 0C water to 1C water. I don’t have my physics text handy, it is a very large amount of energy. This is why ice cubes can sit in a glass of water for so long. If you put equal amounts of 0C ice cubes iand 10C water into a glass, you don’t immediately get 5C water. Instead you get a smaller amount of 0C ice and a lot of 0C water. This is why water doesn’t freeze or melt or condense or boil all at once, it takes a lot of heat to transform 100C water to 100C steam, and you have to add a lot of heat to transform 0C ice to 0C water. And vice versa, of course. And of course, you don’t get the calories from the frozen food instantly, you still have to digest it. Of course you’re almost certain to get more calories out of frozen food than it takes to thaw and bring up to 37C, but that isn’t done instantly. It’s certainly possible to drop your core temp (or mouth or throat temp) to dangerously hypothermic levels while you’re waiting for the lump of ice in your stomach to thaw. Especially in an unheated uninsulated house in the middle of winter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-without-a-heat-source-would-people-up-north-freeze-to-death-in-the-house/337431.md?page=3)