# So wtf is cultural appropriation exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423 "2017-05-25T17:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/81 "2017-05-26T16:42:30Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So the specific ways I’ve described being hurt by it are wrong. Thanks for explaining that to me. I think you have it baclwards in regard to Chanukah. It was Jews who elevated it so they had a special day in the time period of Christmas. It was kinda unfair that some Jewish kids werent getting Christmas presents. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/82 "2017-05-26T16:43:35Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > 1. It may not stop the original people from using the practice and imagary, but it can result in the dominant culture devaluing the source of something they now have taken as their own, or make it more difficult for the original culture to practice. If it is devalued then surely it is only for the dominant culture who don’t hold it to be “sacred” in any way in the first place. Why would the widespread use devalue it for the originators? And how would it make it more difficult for the original culture to practice? > [@](#): > > I can still have a Passover seder, but I have to wade through pages of “Messianic Seder” paraphernalia to buy new Haggadas… I’m sorry but I’m not familiar at all with what any of that means. Something to do with Judaism but I don’t know any jewish people or enough about the faith for that example to be meaningful to me. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/83 "2017-05-26T16:48:57Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think the best way to describe the problem with cultural appropriation to white conservatives is to compare it to stolen valor. If purple heart nose rings and infantry badge head bands started being the next new thing among 20 something hipsters, I would imagine a number of veterans might be a bit miffed. A PH is a reward for a certain act that everyone recognizes. A culture is theoretical and not everyone in any culture agrees exactly with what it is. And a concept like Native American culture is even more ridiculous because there was never any single NA culture but thousands of different ones that stole/borrowed from each other. Especially in a world dominated by mass media and global communication, culture that doesnt adapt will die. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/84 "2017-05-26T16:52:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, let’s go with this–I’m in a public place and screw up in some way that generates a meme image that makes the rounds of the internet. I’d probably be miffed over it. _But I have no right to not be miffed_. If I’m miffed, then it is simply tough shit for me. I have (and should have) no legal recourse to fight miffery. And the same goes for people having “sacred bowls” used as ashtrays. I think I see some confusion here. Cultural appropriation isn’t _illegal_. It’s _jerkish_. When (legitimate) cultural appropriation occurs, the person whose sacred bowl you’re selling as mass-produced ashtrays steps up and says, “Hey you jerk! Stop using my sacred bowl pattern to make ashtrays!” And then you either say, “Oh, sorry, I’ll stop now,” or you’ll say “Ha ha! Fuck you! I can do anything I want and you can’t stop me! Neener neener!” And then your customers will either be like “Ew, what a jerk,” and boycott you, or they’ll be like “Hey, yeah! We hate that minority too! MURDER HIM and take his ACTUAL sacred bowls for ashtrays!!!” This can play out a lot of ways, is what I’m saying. But the upshot of it is that a person who is perpetrating cultural appropriation is, perhaps inadvertently, being a jerk. And if they’re doing it advertently, then they’re probably an asshole. Now, I did say I was talking about ‘legitimate’ cultural appropriation. Illegitimate cultural appropriation is when the person whose culture is being mimicked is totally cool with it. When the native licenses his bowl pattern to you, you sell it, some hypersensitive yahoo gets offended on the (unoffended) minority’s behalf and kickstarts the accusations of assholery and boycotts and whatever for no real reason. This happens now and then. It’s unfortunate. But it doesn’t lessen the reality of actual appropriation and cases of actual offended people any. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/85 "2017-05-26T17:03:41Z")
Let’s Godwinize the thread by talking about the worst case of “cultural appropriation” ever: Hitler took what had been a symbol of peace for thousands of cultures and religions across the world for thousands of years, and overnight he turned it into a symbol of genocide and hatred. That sucks for those guys. On the other hand, Hindus and Buddhists and Navajo, etc, still use the swastika however and wherever they want. And honestly, if _that’s_ what comes to mind when you think about what made the Nazis bad, you’ve got some seriously messed up priorities. The genocide and world war is what made the Nazis bad guys, and the fact that people don’t like swastikas anymore is just an irksome side effect. And as far as I can tell, that’s what’s going on here. People rightly resent that they were enslaved, segregated, red-lined, genocided and beaten down for hundreds of years by white people, but they can’t easily complain about evils perpetrated by those who are now dead. So they focus their anger on college kids wearing headdresses and eating empanadas instead. It’s just a deflection, but one we should pay attention to, because whether the target of the anger deserves it or not, the anger isn’t going away. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/86 "2017-05-26T17:04:51Z")
When they first designed the cafeteria at the 9/11 memorial, the plan was to create a menu based on “American comfort food”. This did not sit well with people. It felt to many like a very uncomfortable packaging of a very intense, heavy, complex concept. That is the feeling being discussed. It’s not that people were against a cafeteria or against mac and cheese. But the concept of a commercial fast food joint directly referencing one of our most sensitive national tragedies felt inappropriate. I don’t think it’s helpful to think of cultural appropriation as a category, as if things are or are not appropriated. It’s instead a conversation, where people are going to have a range of feelings. And that conversation is really the thing that people are mostly looking for, rather than a list of things that are off limits. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/87 "2017-05-26T17:22:50Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > 1. It can alter the way the original culture is implemented in the context of the dominant culture. Hanukkah was a minor holiday and pretty meaningless. But Christian society decided to elevate Hanukkah celebration imagery because of it’s proximity to Christmas (so far as to see Hanukah based Christmas tree ornaments). As a result, over the last few generations Hanukah has become more important even in Jewish society, in order to assimilate and get along with our Christian neighbors. Foe example, work Christmas parties and school winter concerts have morphed into Holiday parties/concerts that feel obligated to include a menorah or Jewish Star. So now many Jewish families have ramped up gift giving etc, which is their own choice, but it was driven by Christian POV that Hanukah must be important because it’s near Christmas. This wasn’t our push- it was a result of the effect of the dominant culture incorporating our holiday for various purposes. I’m not sure I understand this. I will accept that the elevation of Hanukkah is a function of it being a holiday close to a major Christian holiday. But the inclusion of Hanukkah in Christmas celebrations isn’t to “appropriate” it has a Christian holiday. It’s an attempt to be inclusive (or, at least, to avoid establishment clause issues when you put up your creche). I’m not sure I agree that Christians made Hanukkah important nor am I aware of any Christian thinking that Hanukkah is more important that it is because it is close to Christmas. But, even accepting that’s true, I don’t see the appropriation; no one is playing dreidel on Christmas. At worst, outside pressures are changing the ways that Jews practice Judaism. Maybe that’s good; maybe it’s bad. But how is it appropriation? (Contrast that with the clearest example of appropriation of Jewish symbolism that I know: the explicit adoption of the Jewish Nazirite tradition by the Rastafari). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/88 "2017-05-26T17:22:55Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think the best way to describe the problem with cultural appropriation to white conservatives is to compare it to stolen valor. If purple heart nose rings and infantry badge head bands started being the next new thing among 20 something hipsters, I would imagine a number of veterans might be a bit miffed. Miffed why? Why would veterans care what idiot 20 something hipsters do? I’m a veteran, and I wouldn’t care a single iota. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/89 "2017-05-26T17:31:46Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Not at all > > Of course. You get 100 people together deciding where to hold a banquet, 98 of them say place _a_, 2 of them say place _b_, and the banquet is going to be held in place _a_. That is the consequence of majority rule, and while the 2 may not be happy about the decision of the 98, then that is tough noogies for them. That is just a matter of numeric majority. And if the 98 want to hold it at the home of the 2 who do not want the banquet held at their home, just tough noogies for them? > [@](#): > > But it is fighting the status quo of human nature to protect the status quo of a specific idea. You don’t want other people to have access to an idea _because you want to keep it unchanged for yourself_. Such as [this recent article](https://thewalrus.ca/on-cultural-appropriation-canadians-are-hypocrites/) decrying people playing with the concept of the sasquach because the want to keep their children thinking of the sasquatch in a specific way. That is wanting to cling to a status quo. And [complaints about](https://www.google.com/#q=J.K.+Rowling+skinwalkers) J.K. Rowling playing with the concept of “skinwalkers” because some want to maintain the status quo of skinwalkers being thought of in only a specific way. (Even though I didn’t see Europeans complaining about their mythological beasts being played with.) It is all about wanting the world to stay the way it is when it insists on moving on. And fox news complains whenever Santa is portrayed as black, and christians complain whenever jesus is portrayed as black. > [@Stanislaus](#): > > It’s a little like what happened with Burberry ten years ago. And this is a different form of cultural appropriation that is far more acceptable. A weaker demographic picking up the culture habits of a stronger. This has been happening since forever, where the poor or marginalized look up to the wealthy and powerful and try to emulate them. This is the impetus behind virtually all fashion. > [@Slash1972](#): > > How does this stop Native Americans from using a ceremonial head dress? It does not physically stop them, but it most certainly cheapens their culture. It’s hard to empathize with if you do not hold anything sacred yourself, but it’s not that hard to understand. Just look at christians getting upset whenever the Jesus is used in a disrespectful way. I don’t have all that much that is sacred to me, and I don’t know that I would be all that upset if anything from my life were appropriated, but I cannot make that judgement for everyone. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Okay, let’s go with this–I’m in a public place and screw up in some way that generates a meme image that makes the rounds of the internet. I’d probably be miffed over it. _But I have no right to not be miffed_. If I’m miffed, then it is simply tough shit for me. I have (and should have) no legal recourse to fight miffery. And the same goes for people having “sacred bowls” used as ashtrays. So, you do admit that you would be upset about that appropriation of you image. So, why do you not understand others being upset about appropriation of their arts or culture? No one is saying it is illegal, or that there should be a legal recourse, that’s just a strawman of your own creation. What we are saying is that if you know that doing something is going to upset people, and the only benefit you get out of it is a laugh, and maybe the knowledge that you have upset people, then you need to be quite a bit of an asshole to do so. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So the specific ways I’ve described being hurt by it are wrong. Thanks for explaining that to me. Cultural appropriation is not complete until the dominate culture explains to the minority cultures why it is not harming them. > [@madsircool](#): > > I think you have it baclwards in regard to Chanukah. It was Jews who elevated it so they had a special day in the time period of Christmas. It was kinda unfair that some Jewish kids werent getting Christmas presents. That’s actually exactly what he said, I wouldn’t say he had it backwards. That jewish families chose to give presents at hanukkah, because of the expectation created by christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/90 "2017-05-26T17:38:11Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That jewish families chose to give presents at hanukkah, because of the expectation created by christmas. I’m having a hard time determining exactly how this is Cultural Appropriation. Unless you mean Jewish families were appropriating the gift-giving culture of Christmas. Is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/91 "2017-05-26T17:45:02Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Miffed why? Why would veterans care what idiot 20 something hipsters do? I’m a veteran, and I wouldn’t care a single iota. I think you are very much in the minority on that attitude. I am not a vet, and I would find someone “stealing valor” to be in very bad taste, even if not personally offended. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/92 "2017-05-26T17:46:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m having a hard time determining exactly how this is Cultural Appropriation. Unless you mean Jewish families were appropriating the gift-giving culture of Christmas. Is that what you mean? As ITD said, it is one of the effects of cultural appropriation, not cultural appropriation itself. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/93 "2017-05-26T17:47:50Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m having a hard time determining exactly how this is Cultural Appropriation. Unless you mean Jewish families were appropriating the gift-giving culture of Christmas. Is that what you mean? It isn’t, it is Cultural Imperialism. Anything adopted by a larger culture from a smaller culture is Cultural Appropriation and is Bad. Anything adopted by a smaller culture from a larger culture is Cultural Imperialism and is Bad. The takeaway is that the majority culture is always, always the bad guy and the smaller culture is always, always a victim. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/94 "2017-05-26T17:48:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I think you are very much in the minority on that attitude. > > I am not a vet, and I would find someone “stealing valor” to be in very bad taste, even if not personally offended. I see. So you, as a non-vet, are trying to tell me, an actual vet, what I should be offended about? :dubious: Also, wearing a purple heart nose ring is not “stealing valor” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/95 "2017-05-26T17:50:39Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As ITD said, it is one of the effects of cultural appropriation, not cultural appropriation itself. Looks like the Jewish Families were appropriating Christian culture by giving gifts at Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/96 "2017-05-26T17:50:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Miffed why? Why would veterans care what idiot 20 something hipsters do? I’m a veteran, and I wouldn’t care a single iota. The fact that _you_ don’t care about something doesn’t substantiate the idea that other people don’t or shouldn’t care about something, despite the fact that the statement is usually used that way. I mean, personally I don’t care if you get socked in the face. But I bet you do, and my own sociopathic apathy towards your pain doesn’t invalidate your experience one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/97 "2017-05-26T17:54:50Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The fact that _you_ don’t care about something doesn’t substantiate the idea that other people don’t or shouldn’t care about something, despite the fact that the statement is usually used that way. > > I mean, personally I don’t care if you get socked in the face. But I bet you do, and my own sociopathic apathy towards your pain doesn’t invalidate your experience one bit. I’m sorry but are you a veteran? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/98 "2017-05-26T17:58:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m sorry but are you a veteran? I’m sorry but what the fuck does that have to do with literally anything I’ve said? The only time I referred to myself in my post was to call myself a sociopath. Are you attempting to collect data associating sociopathy with the military? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/99 "2017-05-26T17:59:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So you, as a non-vet, are trying to tell me, an actual vet, what I should be offended about? :dubious: Nope, not at all. Just saying that many of your fellow vets do get upset about it. Are you trying to tell them, actual vets, not to be offended? Also mentioning, in passing, that I find it in bad taste. > [@](#): > > Also, wearing a purple heart nose ring is not “stealing valor” Well, no, that’s more like “mocking valor”. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Looks like the Jewish Families were appropriating Christian culture by giving gifts at Christmas. Which, as I pointed out upthread, is actually just fine. A weaker demographic copying the culture of the larger stronger one is pretty much been with us throughout history. The question is whether that culture did so on it’s own, or was more or less required to, in order to achieve the expectations placed by the dominate culture. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/100 "2017-05-26T18:25:27Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So the specific ways I’ve described being hurt by it are wrong. Thanks for explaining that to me. No one said you can’t be hurt by it. But that doesn’t make it cultural appropriation. The first is Christians reading their own holy book and interpreting it differently than you, and, because they are the dominant culture, you find it hard to find your stuff. They aren’t appropriating anything, but interpreting their own Scriptures, which they have just as much a right to, since they started as a Jewish cult. I mean, I guess the second one could be, if Christians are celebrating and misleading people about it. But I’m not sure it’s really up to Christians doing it. I mean, Christmas wasn’t even an important holiday if you go back far enough, but having a Winter Solstice party made it in one. I’m not at all saying you can’t hurt by this. But I don’t really see how either one can be laid at the feet of Christians doing something wrong. It’s not the same as taking sacred stuff you have no connection with and making it trivial. That’s cultural appropriation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=6)