# So wtf is cultural appropriation exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423 "2017-05-25T17:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/121 "2017-05-26T20:09:38Z")
Thanks for the answers! ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/122 "2017-05-26T20:13:15Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > A PH is a reward for a certain act that everyone recognizes. A culture is theoretical and not everyone in any culture agrees exactly with what it is. Yes this is why the whole subsequent discussion of how ‘white conservative’ veterans would/should feel about people ‘stolen valor’ is off point. It’s relatively easy to nail down whether somebody lied about military service or awards received, and it’s in the eyes of people who served honorably in fact and really received any awards they claim to have received. That’s pretty different than the completely subjective judgement of what a ‘culture’ is, what’s ‘appropriating’ in a ‘bad’\* way and who is the gate keeper to decide and/or be offended on behalf of the ‘culture’. The other IMO retrograde part of this is the idea someone who has or considers themselves to have ‘blood’ in a ‘culture’ they haven’t particularly studied and thus don’t know much about, or just some pop history version of it they were taught to ‘raise their self esteem’, would be nominated as gate keeper over somebody (‘white’ or otherwise) who’d actually invested time to know about it. \*even posts seeming to go along with ‘cultural appropriation’ as a worthwhile concept have distinguished ‘good’ and ‘bad’ appropriation. A strong sign IMO the concept doesn’t describe anything exactly enough to offer any improvement over older concepts like ‘don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it’. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/123 "2017-05-26T20:28:48Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > \*even posts seeming to go along with ‘cultural appropriation’ as a worthwhile concept have distinguished ‘good’ and ‘bad’ appropriation. A strong sign IMO the concept doesn’t describe anything exactly enough to offer any improvement over older concepts like ‘don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it’. This is right on. The problem, it seems to me, comes from saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” If that were the standard we all used, then things like “Piss Christ” would also be afforded the same outrage as a frat guy wearing a headdress. But since it is apparently okay to denigrate cherished symbols if they come from a “strong” culture, simply saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” doesn’t work even though it’s the fairest way to go. That’s what I have a problem with. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/124 "2017-05-26T20:30:56Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > If you managed to offend 50% of the people enough for them to speak up about it, you _definitely_ have stepped one some toes. Personally my advice would be to listen to the complaint, maybe do a google or two to see if the cultural element in question seems to have importance within that culture, and also see if you find other examples of members of the culture compaining, and judge based on that. Oh, you mean like [this](http://images.tcj.com/2015/06/DancingBug1.jpeg)! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/125 "2017-05-26T20:40:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is right on. The problem, it seems to me, comes from saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” If that were the standard we all used, then things like “Piss Christ” would also be afforded the same outrage as a frat guy wearing a headdress. But since it is apparently okay to denigrate cherished symbols if they come from a “strong” culture, simply saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” doesn’t work even though it’s the fairest way to go. That’s what I have a problem with. I think it would be, “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols unless your desire is to disrespect the culture it comes from.” Piss Christ was very much meant to disrespect the culture that the christ image comes from, the artist did not hide this at all. The artist didn’t care that it would offend many christians, in fact, I am pretty sure that was the point. So, if your desire is to disrespect and upset people of other cultures, then disrespecting their cherished symbols is a good way to go. If your desire is to not disrespect or upset people of other cultures, then not disrespecting their cherished symbols is a good way to go. The thing about strong vs weak cultures is mostly the matter of punching up vs punching down. Piss Christ is not very likely to make anyone assume that it has anything to do with actual christian ceremonies, as everyone in our culture is very indoctrinated in the christian theology, even if they are not a follower. Wearing a ceremonial headdress and whooping about is a bit different, in that there will be those who think that that sort of thing is what defines the culture that you are currently mocking. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/126 "2017-05-26T20:43:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is right on. The problem, it seems to me, comes from saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” If that were the standard we all used, then things like “Piss Christ” would also be afforded the same outrage as a frat guy wearing a headdress. But since it is apparently okay to denigrate cherished symbols if they come from a “strong” culture, simply saying “don’t disrespect other people’s cherished symbols if you can avoid it” doesn’t work even though it’s the fairest way to go. That’s what I have a problem with. For the love of thor don’t ask me to defend modern art, please, just don’t. But, also, Piss Christ was made by an American and thus wan’t cultural appropriation. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Oh, you mean like [this](http://images.tcj.com/2015/06/DancingBug1.jpeg)! I’m pretty sure “people whose ignorance and viciousness lead them to want to murder people” isn’t considered a distinct culture. Also that comic was really confusing and I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/127 "2017-05-26T21:10:31Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > The American conservative christians seem to get themselves up in outrage but it is in internal to your own culture so it does not fit the concept. > > Of course there is not any exclusivity in the idea, very strange objection… American conservative Christianity is itself built on multiple layers of past appropriation, as are most even somewhat “civilized” cultures. Yes, there are those who whinge about at anything but their kind of music being called “gospel,” or even the word “believers” being used for anyone but them, but they are in the main just expressing their own provincial ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/128 "2017-05-26T21:13:30Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s just me being picky, but you cannot seriously tell me that you think the Backstreet Boys took Public Enemy’s place. Those acts aren’t in the same market at all. > > The Backstreet Boys replaced the New Kids on the Block. Everyone knows that. (The Backstreet Boys were then replaced by N’Sync.) Right, but NKOTB sort of replaced New Edition–except that they didn’t really, New Edition just split into other acts and kept going. Well, maybe they replaced Menudo–well, not entirely. Um. I do find it amusing that this is basically the old pattern of teenagers whining about music, just blown up into other spheres of culture. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/129 "2017-05-26T23:44:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That’s a very … novel … perspective. > > Perhaps more accurately the status quo in most societies is that the dominant culture owns all ideas and is in charge of deciding what is and what is not offensive. And perhaps the members of the dominant culture - comprising the majority of the population - are perfectly happy with that state of affairs? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/130 "2017-05-26T23:46:43Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Very few realize that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur are my holy days. Look at how Hanukah is celebrated in Israel or places where Christianity isn’t so dominant and you see a different picture. I’m old enough to remember when Hanukah changed from little “stocking stuffer” type toys\*, dreidels and chocolate coins to gamble with to “Christmas-Lite”. And actually, I like the post change version better. It (along with Purim and Sukkot) aren’t the Holy days, but they’re the _fun_ ones and I don’t think that changed when it became a more/better known holiday. Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur are still more important to Jews (in my experience) the same way that Christmas is the more fun holiday for Christians but Good Friday and Easter are (I believe) more important. Back on topic, regardless of whether cultural appropriation is real or not (and I lean towards “not”) can we all agree that a woman who respected a culture enough learn to make their food in an authentic, respectful fashion, studying the locals, learning their techniques so they’re NOT making a gross, Taco Bell-esque tortilla like substance are NOT culturally appropriating? \*Yes, I’m aware of the irony in this description. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/131 "2017-05-27T01:30:42Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I think the best way to describe the problem with cultural appropriation to white conservatives is to compare it to stolen valor. If purple heart nose rings and infantry badge head bands started being the next new thing among 20 something hipsters, I would imagine a number of veterans might be a bit miffed. Around here, you can see plenty of young people wearing military-style jackets, combat boots, etc. it was also very fashionable to wear military garb in the counterculture in the 1960’s and 1970’s. Today, A-2 and B-1 flight jackets are all the rage. I would guess that very, very few of the people who wear them are pilots or were ever in the military. Claiming a Medal of Honor or a Purple Heart isn’t ‘appropriation’. It’s fraud. it would be more akin to a white person claiming they are actually black or some other minority to gain college admission, compete for scholarships that only go to minorities, etc. Oh wait… Is that supposed to be okay now? It’s so hard to stay ‘woke’ when the rules keep changing. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/132 "2017-05-27T02:27:33Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > . . . Claiming a Medal of Honor or a Purple Heart isn’t ‘appropriation’. It’s fraud. . . . Different issue; Purple Heart veterans are not a “culture.” Also, no, it isn’t fraud. There’s no material loss. It could be used fraudulently – “Who’ll buy a drink for a Purple Heart veteran?” – but it is not actually fraud. Shabby, but not criminal. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/133 "2017-05-27T03:22:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I think I see some confusion here. Cultural appropriation isn’t _illegal_. It’s _jerkish_. When (legitimate) cultural appropriation occurs, the person whose sacred bowl you’re selling as mass-produced ashtrays steps up and says, “Hey you jerk! Stop using my sacred bowl pattern to make ashtrays!” And then you either say, “Oh, sorry, I’ll stop now,” or you’ll say “Ha ha! Fuck you! I can do anything I want and you can’t stop me! Neener neener!” And then your customers will either be like “Ew, what a jerk,” and boycott you, or they’ll be like “Hey, yeah! We hate that minority too! MURDER HIM and take his ACTUAL sacred bowls for ashtrays!!!” “either”? You really like excluded middles? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/134 "2017-05-27T05:10:33Z")
For me it’s enlightening to see this in evolutionary and genetic terms, cultures that don’t evolve either go extinct or are reduced to increasingly difficult to find small niches (for example the [Sentinelese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese))… and will eventually go extinct too. The way cultures evolve is by _“appropriation”_, either from other distinct cultures or from sub cultures among themselves and you can dice up the origins down to the level of individuals. Monkey see monkey do is how we stopped being monkeys in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/135 "2017-05-27T07:02:41Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > So then comes someone like the Beastie Boys, and along comes Backstreet and N’Sync and Justin Timberlake, The [Beastie Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beastie_Boys) are not in the same catagory as the other acts you mention. Just because they’re “white rappers”, doesn’t mean they were about “a desire to show it to a broader audience”. Not even in that universe, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/136 "2017-05-27T23:37:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Also that comic was really confusing and I don’t get it. I’m glad I’m not the only one. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > The [Beastie Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beastie_Boys) are not in the same catagory as the other acts you mention. Just because they’re “white rappers”, doesn’t mean they were about “a desire to show it to a broader audience”. Not even in that universe, dude. This statement surprises me. I know very little about rap music, but I watched the Netflix special _Hip Hop Evolution_ and based on the documentary it seemed very much like Def Jam records was trying to capitalize on the fact that the Beastie Boys were white. I’m not implying this makes them any less awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/137 "2017-05-28T14:16:58Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > 1. It can alter the way the original culture is implemented in the context of the dominant culture. Hanukkah was a minor holiday and pretty meaningless. But Christian society decided to elevate Hanukkah celebration imagery because of it’s proximity to Christmas (so far as to see Hanukah based Christmas tree ornaments). As a result, over the last few generations Hanukah has become more important even in Jewish society, in order to assimilate and get along with our Christian neighbors. Foe example, work Christmas parties and school winter concerts have morphed into Holiday parties/concerts that feel obligated to include a menorah or Jewish Star. So now many Jewish families have ramped up gift giving etc, which is their own choice, but it was driven by Christian POV that Hanukah must be important because it’s near Christmas. This wasn’t our push- it was a result of the effect of the dominant culture incorporating our holiday for various purposes. You sure about that? A lot of Jews seem to think that they focus on Hanukuh was a reaction to the the smorgasborg of gifts non-Jewish kids were getting around Christmastime. At what point does assimilation and the great american melting pot become cultural appropriation? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/138 "2017-05-28T15:30:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > … At what point does assimilation and the great american melting pot become cultural appropriation? FWIW that to me would be an interesting discussion that seem well nigh impossible to have in face of the extreme positions that get staked out by some in these threads. Arguing with those who apparently feel that there is no point, and whose response to the concept that those who are structurally in power within a society should (if they want to not be jerks) tread carefully and respectfully when using symbols of clear importance to those who are structurally of much less power with “fuck that shit” is merely tedious. Not worth the effort. FWIW I do not think there is a clear line in the sand and I do not believe that any individual’s declaration of where the line is need be accepted as objective truth. My bias is that the benefits of cultural cross pollination are large, have historically been America’s “secret sauce” and “value added”, but they do not automatically excuse boorishness and disrespect. I’ve already offered what I think are fair principles to try to apply in deciding when the lines are getting close (degree of structural power differential within the culture at large; magnitude of importance of the symbol; degree of respect shown). **Damuri Ajashi** does that seem like a reasonable approach to making the decision to you? What modifications or alternative would you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/139 "2017-05-28T15:34:37Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > [Except…](http://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2017/05/22/19028161/this-week-in-appropriation-kooks-burritos-and-willamette-week) > > This is terrible news to me as I know one of the women involved and just can’t make any sense of the terrible things this very woman who I really like has supposedly done. Wow; that article is racist as fuck. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/140 "2017-05-28T15:48:20Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > To anyone wondering why this might be a big idea, have you ever gotten mad at someone for wearing a shirt of a band you liked without having a clue about their music? not since I was in middle school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=8)