# So wtf is cultural appropriation exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423 "2017-05-25T17:26:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/141 "2017-05-28T23:02:55Z")
If the best argument against cultural appropriation is that I still have my Radiohead shirt from 9th grade then the Left has A LOT of work to do. Simply put, all cultures appropriate from other cultures. It’s called being human. It is, in fact, the societal rejection of xenophobic impulses, which I thought was the Left’s cause du jour these days. The sheer inanity of this sort of faux outrage is how the frightening scenario of an 8-year Trump presidency crawls closer and closer to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/142 "2017-05-28T23:35:24Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And I say seriously fuck that shit. A good idea is worth adopting if it comes from 200 people or 200 million, and a bad idea is worth deriding if it comes from 200 million people or 200. All this “punching up”, “punching down”, “power differential” coddling kid glove treatment of minority groups just because they are minority groups is, IMHO, a steaming pile of bullshit. Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/143 "2017-05-29T04:53:54Z")
Not reading this thread but seeing how many responses are here consider this a response to the conservatives who take the most extreme examples of something done in the name of attempting to bridge divides and write off everything as “political correctness” and call them all “snowflakes” and this also alleviates them any responsibility to actually think about the issue because they already [fallaciously decided](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/94/False-Dilemma) that if someone, somewhere took things too far that there is no merit to the issue in any form. Here are some examples where those decrying cultural appropriation have a legitimate point. > [@](#): > > A recent example of cultural appropriation is when non-black people wear black hairstyles (that is, hairstyles associated with global black culture). From cornrows and Senegalese twists to Bantu knots and dreadlocks, which are all rooted in the African diaspora and many of which have been a part of African cultures’ heritage for centuries, black hairstyles in the current culture have been deemed “fashionable” by white or white-passing celebrities, from the Kardashians to the recent Fashion Week brouhaha in which Marc Jacobs used mainly white models styled in dreadlocks for a show, and only apologized after significant backlash. > > Common retorts to accusations of cultural appropriation include the argument that any hairstyle can be worn by anyone. In the case of Marc Jacobs, another defense of cultural appropriation put forth is that black women also copy Eurocentric hairdos. The latter argument is ahistorical and archaic given that black women globally are subjected to European standards of beauty, and assimilation has been the mode of surviving and thriving in white-dominated spaces. The former argument, on its face, appears harmless. But in truth, it ignores the racial dynamics at work where black women are not only discredited or overlooked for wearing black/African hairdos, they are sometimes even deemed unprofessional and “ugly,” from the workplace to the social culture, whereas these hairstyles become “normalized” and even fashionable when white spaces and white people “borrow” them. This is power. This is cultural appropriation. > > [Alternet](http://www.alternet.org/culture/cultural-appropriation-pho-lionel-shriver-jamie-oliver-marc-jacobs) Like many things cultural appropriation is not a new phenomenon in America. It just gets more attention now. In the 1950s Elvis and other white musicians appropriated rhythm & blues music prevalent in the black community. They got rich off of the pioneering artistry from blacks who didn’t see a fraction of the rewards, both financial and historically. This is of course due to this country’s long history of racism - a black blues singer would not have just been filmed from the waist up on Ed Sullivan if he gyrated his hips too provocatively, he wouldn’t have been booked at all and likely faced indecency charges for riling up white girls. It would be nice if marginalized groups of people who had their cultures appropriated received a benefit for this. But usually the marginalized groups continue to be marginalized - Becky can wear cool dreads but Shaniqua finds it harder to get a job and wear them. White people got rich off rock and roll while ripping off black musicians. This comes with privilege. And some white people (especially conservative white people) have an issue recognizing this. The easiest example of this is the continued use of a racist pejorative term for a professional football franchise located in the nation’s capital. The NFL team in Washington is built upon cultural appropriation. Their cries that this appropriation is meant as a “tribute” ring hollow on many levels. Yet, many people still have decided that it’s perfectly okay to name a team a racial slur. Why? Cultural appropriation. And that’s why it’s not a good thing. By all means, keep looking people who say white people cannot make burritos and use that to justify all of the other cases that are not to easy to dismiss, and dismiss them anyway because shades of degree and impact hurt your head and it’s easier to reinforce a worldview based on the extreme examples than to look at the whole picture. You’re not doing much to eradicate ignorance on a board dedicated to eradicating ignorance, but you sure can make people laugh with your quick japes which is almost as important as maintaining that worldview. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/144 "2017-05-29T05:57:29Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > You’re not doing much to eradicate ignorance on a board dedicated to eradicating ignorance, but you sure can make people laugh with your quick japes which is almost as important as maintaining that worldview. Just as important is the idea that societies evolve and adapt by appropriation, and basically it’s too fucking bad if members of the appropriated culture don’t like it. No-one seems to have a problem with much of the world wearing Western business suits or consuming British/American entertainment (and culture) - but frankly getting upset because white people want cornrows in their hair or like to record rap music is unproductive and disharmonious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/145 "2017-05-29T06:20:46Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Just as important is the idea that societies evolve and adapt by appropriation, and basically it’s too fucking bad if members of the appropriated culture don’t like it. Why yes, marginalized people are always told that it’s “too fucking bad.” Thanks for pointing that out. > [@](#): > > No-one seems to have a problem with much of the world wearing Western business suits or consuming British/American entertainment (and culture) - but frankly getting upset because white people want cornrows in their hair or like to record rap music is unproductive and disharmonious. Your privilege is showing. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/146 "2017-05-29T07:55:43Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Why yes, marginalized people are always told that it’s “too fucking bad.” Thanks for pointing that out. Not really a response to my point, though. > [@](#): > > Your privilege is showing. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/147 "2017-05-29T16:22:30Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Here are some examples where those decrying cultural appropriation have a legitimate point. This is an interesting one for me (as I’ve said before). An example of where you think there is a “legitimate point” about cultural appropriation is "when non-black people wear black hairstyles (that is, hairstyles associated with global black culture)"to include “dreadlocks” which “which are all rooted in the African diaspora and many of which have been a part of African cultures’ heritage for centuries.” (I’m quoting from your block quote). Now, as you know, dreadlocks feature prominently in many cultures globally. Making it hard to say that they are “rooted” in African culture (although I have no doubt that they have also been a part of African culture for centuries, since they’re part of just about every culture). Dreadlocks are found everywhere from Spartan warriors to Hindu Sadhus; from Norse Vikings to Jewish Nazirites; from Native Americans to Buddhist Nagapas. Members of just about every near eastern culture have been depicted with deadlocks (Greek, Egyptians, Hittite, Sumerian, and so on) going back much longer than “centuries.” In fact, the most prominent “African” cultural use of dreadlocks (at least in the United States) is the Jamaican Rastafari whose dreadlocks \*explicitly \* appropriate Jewish Nazirite custom. And yet, despite the global history of dreadlocks, they are “rooted” in African culture to the point that you find it a legitimate concern. I assume because the Rastafarian appropriation of Jewish practice was so successful so as to erase the Jewish culture (at least in the United States). And the typical response is that the trangressing white with dreadlocks is motivated, not by the Book of Numbers but by Bob Marley. Because first-come first-appropriate, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/148 "2017-05-29T16:25:50Z")
Look, these two women faced a backlash fundamentally because they were being jerks, not because white people making burritos has become a cultural crime. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/149 "2017-05-29T18:50:03Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Look, these two women faced a backlash fundamentally because they were being jerks, not because white people making burritos has become a cultural crime. No, they faced backlash because someone with a very small brain and a very large chip on their shoulder chose to write a deeply political, deeply stupid screed. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/150 "2017-05-29T18:58:44Z")
I’ll add that the alt-right has coined the perfect term (even a blind nut sometimes finds a squirrel) for the people that believe that if they claim that they are offended they are by default right and everyone must provide a groveling apology and shut down that area of expression entirely–_crybullies_. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2017, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/151 "2017-05-29T19:12:28Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > I’ll add that the alt-right has coined the perfect term . . . _crybullies_. Their absolute mastery of projection never fails to astonish. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/152 "2017-05-31T01:30:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > FWIW that to me would be an interesting discussion that seem well nigh impossible to have in face of the extreme positions that get staked out by some in these threads. > > Arguing with those who apparently feel that there is no point, and whose response to the concept that those who are structurally in power within a society should (if they want to not be jerks) tread carefully and respectfully when using symbols of clear importance to those who are structurally of much less power with “fuck that shit” is merely tedious. Not worth the effort. > > FWIW I do not think there is a clear line in the sand and I do not believe that any individual’s declaration of where the line is need be accepted as objective truth. > > My bias is that the benefits of cultural cross pollination are large, have historically been America’s “secret sauce” and “value added”, but they do not automatically excuse boorishness and disrespect. > > I’ve already offered what I think are fair principles to try to apply in deciding when the lines are getting close (degree of structural power differential within the culture at large; magnitude of importance of the symbol; degree of respect shown). > > **Damuri Ajashi** does that seem like a reasonable approach to making the decision to you? What modifications or alternative would you suggest? I don’t know but I think a lot of people have gone from legitimate gripes about cultural appropriation to putting a racial spin on anything white people do that might have its origins in minority culture. I’ve literally seen people say that white people should not make money on black music or bbq. I am relieved to see that as much of a liberal echo chamber as SDMB is, it isn’t that far gone. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/153 "2017-05-31T01:40:01Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I don’t know but I think a lot of people have gone from legitimate gripes about cultural appropriation to putting a racial spin on anything white people do that might have its origins in minority culture. I’ve literally seen people say that white people should not make money on black music or bbq. > > I am relieved to see that as much of a liberal echo chamber as SDMB is, it isn’t that far gone. Meh to the “lots” … a few with megaphones who then get attention mainly by the spotlights shined on them who want to use their extremism to mock the entirety of the concept, seems more like it to me. ---
**Author:** ![Anita\_Dayoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Anita\_Dayoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anita_Dayoff)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2017, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/154 "2017-05-31T23:25:00Z")
I’m of Scottish ancestry so I can no longer boil pasta and must eat haggis. This may kill me. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/155 "2017-06-01T03:02:12Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Meh to the “lots” … a few with megaphones who then get attention mainly by the spotlights shined on them who want to use their extremism to mock the entirety of the concept, seems more like it to me. Do spotlights force women to stop making burritos? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/156 "2017-06-01T03:24:42Z")
The entire idea of “Cultural Appropriation” is rather silly. Throughout Human history, human cultures have learned and adapted from each other. Pasta reached Italy from China. Gunpowder came from China. Our very numbering system came from the Arabs. When escaped Spanish horses multiplied, their existence changed whole native american cultures. South American foods (chiles, corn, potatoes) changed the world. The way it is used today, primarily by stupid college students, is personally offensive to me, because these people are supposed to be in an institute of higher learning, but they’re bug-fucking ignorant of human history. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/157 "2017-06-01T04:49:57Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Do spotlights force women to stop making burritos? Did _anyone_ “force” the women running the cart to close? They chose to shutter up. IMHO my suspicion is that the reality was that the interviewed owner was thinking she was being cute and funny in her friendly coverage article making fun of her own broken Spanish and telling a story describing their persistent efforts to learn proper techniques as “peeking into the windows of every kitchen, totally fascinated …” Do you think they actually snuck around and peeked in kitchen windows? Of course not. She thought she was being funny and as a well intended but clueless White liberal Portlandian when it got bad press (and even more press about the press) and she was being accused of being something horrific they were horrified and immediately retreated. Could they have stayed open? Hell the press might have gotten them _more_ business … but y’know for many White liberals being accused of being racist is more anxiety provoking almost anything. It wasn’t worth it to them, but that was a choice not being forced. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/158 "2017-06-01T12:57:30Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The entire idea of “Cultural Appropriation” is rather silly. Throughout Human history, human cultures have learned and adapted from each other. Pasta reached Italy from China. Gunpowder came from China. Our very numbering system came from the Arabs. When escaped Spanish horses multiplied, their existence changed whole native american cultures. South American foods (chiles, corn, potatoes) changed the world. > > The way it is used today, primarily by stupid college students, is personally offensive to me, because these people are supposed to be in an institute of higher learning, but they’re bug-fucking ignorant of human history. I think Cultural appropriation is a thing. I just think that cultural appropriation (like many terms in the race conversation) has been “appropriated” to mean things that are stupid. I’m not saying that everyone has to be a crit race theory major but if you don’t actually know what institutional racism is, then don’t use the term. If you don’t know what white privilege is, don’t go around telling white people to “check their privilege” If you don’t actually know what cultural appropriation means, then don’t use the term and expand it to include white women making tacos in the back of a truck. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/159 "2017-06-01T20:29:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “either”? You really like excluded middles? Yes. Also, the block of text you quoted was absolutely 100% serious. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423/160 "2017-06-02T19:02:10Z")
Can anyone provide examples of the sort of cultural appropriation that should be considered genuinely offensive? All the examples I have seen thus far have been of the “whacko liberal” variety. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-wtf-is-cultural-appropriation-exactly/787423.md?page=9)