# So You \[God\] think you're all that and more? Prove it! \[ed. title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411 "2011-04-06T16:34:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/21 "2011-04-06T17:59:57Z")
I’m not sure what could convince me. Perhaps if God made me omniscient for a brief period. Then, presumably, however God would know that he was omniscient (or omnipotent), would be the same way I could. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/22 "2011-04-06T18:06:40Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’m not sure what could convince me. > > Perhaps if God made me omniscient for a brief period. Then, presumably, however God would know that he was omniscient (or omnipotent), would be the same way I could. That’s a pretty good way. “How can I prove that my car is the best? Here, _you_ take the wheel and see for yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/23 "2011-04-06T18:07:16Z")
Meh. It’s possible to prove that some superpowerful being exists. Proving that said entity was actually all-powerful and the creator of our universe isn’t. That isn’t possible given the limitations of the human condition. The entity that moves the stars to form the words “Worship Me!” in every written language might very well just be a cosmic con man. But if he can blast your butt with a lightening bolt, you might want to get with the program. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/24 "2011-04-06T18:07:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Levitation might convince you that he could defy that particular law of nature, but would you then automatically assume that he could defy all the others? If one can be defied, I’m not sure what’s stopping me from losing confidence in all of them in general. > [@](#): > > 1. What would convince you that he was all-powerful? I can’t imagine a good generalization of the form “It can do X1, X2, X3… Xn, therefore, it can do Xm for arbitrary m,” no matter what the value of n, if n and m range over all logically possible actions. (Throw in the logically impossible and things get even worse). But I’ve been surprised before. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/25 "2011-04-06T18:08:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _If_ an entity called “God” existed, how could he convince you that he was “all-powerful” and was able to defy the laws of science as we currently understand them? I think I might be convinced if I were allowed to watch him create a universe, while perhaps creating a square circle. He’d be able to make Diogenes change his mind. 😃 (Dio, it’s just a joke, not a snipe. Please forgive.) ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/26 "2011-04-06T18:28:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a pretty good way. “How can I prove that my car is the best? Here, _you_ take the wheel and see for yourself.” True…I do get the feeling that my response is kicking the premise down the line though… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/27 "2011-04-06T19:05:01Z")
In the mid-nineties, there was a fun website called something like the Deity Challenge. It was open to any deities, and it had a series of challenges the deity had to meet after signing up for the contest. The first deity that successfully met all the challenges won the prize: all the worshippers of all the deities. Most of the challenges were pretty basic: stop the sun for 24 hours, raise the dead, turn water into wine, etc. But there was one really good one. It went something like this. Imagine a circle the size of the entire universe. Measure its circumference with a unit the size of an electron. Pi, rounded off to 33 decimal places (or something like that), would be sufficient to describe the relationship between this circle’s diameter and circumference. Round pi off to 33 decimal places such that any derivation of pi does not continue into a 34th place. Another possibility: simultaneously ask everyone for one demonstration of the god’s power, and then separate them into logically coherent requests that cause no suffering, and all the rest. Simultaneously meet all coherent benign requests (in separate universes if necessary). Undo any harm caused by any request. Share everyone’s memory of the meeting of their request such that we can hold them all in our heads simultaneously, expanding brain functioning where necessary. Allow us to discuss and verify with one another that our requests were freely made, and that the memory of the fulfillment of the request was experienced by the requester. An entity that could do that would be indistinguishable from all-powerful, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/28 "2011-04-06T19:42:22Z")
Well, if s/he/it could create a rock so big that even s/he/it couldn’t lift it…but then DID lift it…well, I’m not sure what that would prove, but it would certainly be something. Or, if God could build this giant wooden badger… -XT ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/29 "2011-04-06T19:55:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But there was one really good one. It went something like this. Imagine a circle the size of the entire universe. Measure its circumference with a unit the size of an electron. Pi, rounded off to 33 decimal places (or something like that), would be sufficient to describe the relationship between this circle’s diameter and circumference. Round pi off to 33 decimal places such that any derivation of pi does not continue into a 34th place. This is not a well-defined challenge for multiple reasons. First of all an electron is, depending on how you interpret our current understanding of physics, either a point mass or a wave with no exact size. Second, the “size of the entire universe” is not clearly defined either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/30 "2011-04-06T20:04:36Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > This is not a well-defined challenge for multiple reasons. First of all an electron is, depending on how you interpret our current understanding of physics, either a point mass or a wave with no exact size. Second, the “size of the entire universe” is not clearly defined either. Maybe I should have prefaced it by saying I was remembering something I read 15 years ago, or said the challenge went “something like this.” Would that have avoided such a pedantic objection? So rephrase it this way: God, tell us what the size of the universe is, exactly, and explain your reasoning. Then tell us the approximate size of the smallest reasonable object to measure in the universe. Round pi off so there are no numbers beyond what is necessary to measure such a circle using such a unit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/31 "2011-04-06T20:04:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _If_ an entity called “God” existed, how could he convince you that he was “all-powerful” and was able to defy the laws of science as we currently understand them? I think I might be convinced if I were allowed to watch him create a universe, while perhaps creating a square circle. Professor X could make you think that he could do both of those, and he isn’t a god. Once you are speaking of beings capable of controlling minds there isn’t any way you can tell if they are lying or not, and mind control is a lot less powerful than “godlike”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/32 "2011-04-06T20:09:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Professor X could make you think that he could do both of those, and he isn’t a god. Once you are speaking of beings capable of controlling minds there isn’t any way you can tell if they are lying or not, and mind control is a lot less powerful than “godlike”. Sure–but a being capable of controlling minds could presumably also make you think anything else. From your experience, a being capable of making you experience anything is functionally indistinguishable from a being capable of doing anything. You may as well act as though that entity is all-powerful. This is a general principle: in all cases, despite the possibility that this world is illusory, there’s very little percentage in acting as though it is in general, unless you have specific evidence that a specific aspect of the world is illusory. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/33 "2011-04-06T22:56:28Z")
He could stop punishing me for whatever the hell I did. Make Republicans go extinct. (I’d settle for Tea Party members) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/34 "2011-04-06T23:29:18Z")
Restore my missing left testicle. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/35 "2011-04-06T23:30:11Z")
Damn…proof that you are a lefty, Fear!! -XT ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/36 "2011-04-06T23:31:27Z")
How would we know He violated a law of science when we don’t know what they truly are and they change over time? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/37 "2011-04-06T23:34:22Z")
The best way to convince me that he’s all powerful, is to convince me that he’s all powerful. That is to say, if he’s the genuine article, he doesn’t have to do anything, beyond willing me to believe that he’s all powerful, and I will so believe. Because I don’t have a choice in the matter. As **Der Trihs** points out, Professor X could do the same thing, so it’s not actual proof that he is all powerful. But it’s the best and easiest proof that I’d accept. Because, again, I wouldn’t have any choice in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/38 "2011-04-06T23:41:38Z")
Man, you guys are just too harsh. For the right price I’d believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause or an honest politician! If God wants to pony up some scratch I’m game to become his or her most fervent believer. I’m opening the bids at $1 million…Odin? What do you say?? No Shiva…I need to be able to SPEND the money, so offering to destroy the world really isn’t going to win you bonus points… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/39 "2011-04-06T23:44:10Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > How would we know He violated a law of science when we don’t know what they truly are and they change over time? The laws of science change? I don’t _think_ so-it is our understanding of those laws as evidence comes in that changes. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411/40 "2011-04-06T23:46:56Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Pfft, I’d settle for a mind-bent spoon. > [@runner pat](#): > > Or a Klondike Bar. It’s been done, sort of. In the original movie “Bedazzled”, Dudley Moore demands that Satan prove his powers by producing an “ice lolly”. Which he does, although with considerably less drama than Dudley’s character hoped for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-god-think-youre-all-that-and-more-prove-it-ed-title/577411.md?page=3)