# So you killed your kid while cleaning your gun. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020 "2013-03-26T17:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/41 "2013-03-26T21:51:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Dude shot his son in the face. Any insults and wishes for additional torment that could possibly be heaped upon him are _less_ than he deserves. Thank God you’re here to dole it out. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/42 "2013-03-26T23:38:12Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Thank God you’re here to dole it out. How much sympathy does a man who pointed a shotgun at his son’s head and pulled the trigger deserve? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/43 "2013-03-27T00:08:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How much sympathy does a man who pointed a shotgun at his son’s head and pulled the trigger deserve? Do you know that he pulled the trigger? ETA: yeah, CITE? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/44 "2013-03-27T00:13:14Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Do you know that he pulled the trigger? Guns go off when you pull the trigger. They don’t go off when they’re just sitting on the mantlepiece. The only way this gun went off is because he pulled the trigger. I don’t know if he meant to pull the trigger, he probably didn’t. But he pulled the trigger. Guns also shoot in the direction they are pointed. If you point a gun west, it won’t hit someone standing to the east. And so, he was pointing the gun at his son’s head. He might not have realized he was pointing a gun at his child’s head, but he did. Guns only go off when loaded. And so, while he may not have realized the fucking gun was loaded, it was loaded. He pointed a loaded gun at his son’s head and pulled the trigger. That’s what happened. This is how gun “accidents” happen. Guns are inanimate objects. Every time a human being is shot, it is because a human being caused it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/45 "2013-03-27T00:47:54Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Do you know that he pulled the trigger? > > ETA: yeah, CITE? Let’s assume he didn’t. He still had a firearm pointed at someone’s head, which violates Rule #2: Never point your weapon at something you don’t want destroyed. The reason why the Four Rules exist and are inviolable is because if they are followed it is impossible to kill anybody, even if there is a weapon malfunction (rare though they are). He didn’t follow the rules. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/46 "2013-03-27T01:00:15Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > And one glorious afternoon in Vegas I got to fire an MP5K which was sooooooo sweeeeeeet…I can’t even tell you. If that is a girl gun, I am all for it! We probably both handled the exact same gun 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/47 "2013-03-27T01:03:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The only way this gun went off is because he pulled the trigger. Bullshit. [Cite](http://www.newsinferno.com/?p=42642) [Another](http://www.commongunsense.com/2010/09/can-guns-go-off-without-someone-pulling.html) [From Wikipedia on accidental discharge:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_discharge) > [@](#): > > Accidental discharges not involving trigger-pull can also occur if the firearm is mechanically unsound: poor maintenance, abuse, inept “gunsmithing,” or the use of substandard materials or defective ammunition in the gun may all lead to breakage. So, do you have a cite that, in this case, the dude pulled the trigger? Or are you just fulla shit? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/48 "2013-03-27T01:04:58Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Let’s assume he didn’t. He still had a firearm pointed at someone’s head, which violates Rule #2: Never point your weapon at something you don’t want destroyed. Totally agree, but accidental discharge without trigger pull is a real entity. Just sayin. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/49 "2013-03-27T01:17:04Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Totally agree, but accidental discharge without trigger pull is a real entity. Just sayin. I agree that it is possible, but in real-world use, a weapon having a malfunction which caused it to discharge itself is very, very remote, like lottery odds remote. I have a small collection and I hit the range fairly often during the summer, along with being around weapons in the military, and I’ve never seen it happen. I would bet everything I have that he pulled the trigger. It is, overwhelmingly, the likely cause of the discharge. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/50 "2013-03-27T01:23:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Totally agree, but accidental discharge without trigger pull is a real entity. Just sayin. So, let me get this straight: Guns don’t kill people, people kill people; or so we have been told. Unless it is a father cleaning his gun; in that case, the damn thing just went off by itself, killing his son. So which is it, in this case? Do guns kill people, or do gun owners kill people? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/51 "2013-03-27T01:26:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Guns can be defective like any other product. I forget which gun it was but there was a gun that could fire when you disnegaged the safety. Maybe so; there’s room for a tiny sliver of doubt regarding whether he pulled the trigger or whether the gun somehow was defective and spontaneously released its hammer. But I’ve never, ever heard of a gun that loaded itself and pointed itself at one’s next of kin. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/52 "2013-03-27T01:36:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So, let me get this straight: > > Guns don’t kill people, people kill people; or so we have been told. > > Unless it is a father cleaning his gun; in that case, the damn thing just went off by itself, killing his son. > > So which is it, in this case? Do guns kill people, or do gun owners kill people? Gun owners kill people. He pointed the weapon at his son. He broke the rules. But you knew that, you just wanted to play snotty rhetorical games. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/53 "2013-03-27T01:59:21Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > [Father cleaning shotgun shoots 10-year-old son in the head in N.C.](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/26/17470862-father-cleaning-shotgun-shoots-10-year-old-son-in-the-head-in-nc?lite) > > Congratulations on demonstrating an astounding level of negligence when it really, really mattered. Not only did you _not_ check to see that your gun was unloaded, you actually managed to point it at your son’s head and pull the trigger. Now your son is dead, his sister is severely traumatized, and I hope you suffer a lifetime of ostracism and horrible guilty feelings as a result of your felonious stupidity. In fact, if [Johannes Mehserles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Mehserles) can be made to serve two years for grabbing (and firing) the wrong weapon in a high-tension moment, then you surely deserve at least that much time behind bars for neglecting just about every firearm safety rule ever created. Lol at the mention of Johannes Mehserles and the “high tension moment”. Wasn’t there video of this? It was super calm. Guy wasn’t resisting at all. They were one guy had just cuffed him, then thus douchebag, Incompetent motherfucker whips out his gun, thinking it was his tazer, even though neither were required. Certainly tazing was not at all necessary, the guy was simply on a power trip, and then murders the guy. Fucking murders him. He got two years? Fuck the officials involved in that travesty. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/54 "2013-03-27T02:03:55Z")
I know a couple of people who have won moderate lottery pay-offs. I also know a guy who had an accidental discharge while hunting when a tree limb (assumed) snagged the trigger of his shoulder slung gun. I know another guy who had an accidental discharge when he dropped his old, pos handgun (finger nowhere near the trigger). And I know a guy that accidentally discharged his gun while he was loading it (no details, I was a kid at the time). No injuries in any of those cases. Could have been, but all were generally safety conscious individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/55 "2013-03-27T02:07:30Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > [Father cleaning shotgun shoots 10-year-old son in the head in N.C.](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/26/17470862-father-cleaning-shotgun-shoots-10-year-old-son-in-the-head-in-nc?lite) > > Congratulations on demonstrating an astounding level of negligence when it really, really mattered. Not only did you _not_ check to see that your gun was unloaded, you actually managed to point it at your son’s head and pull the trigger. Now your son is dead, his sister is severely traumatized, and I hope you suffer a lifetime of ostracism and horrible guilty feelings as a result of your felonious stupidity. In fact, if [Johannes Mehserles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Mehserles) can be made to serve two years for grabbing (and firing) the wrong weapon in a high-tension moment, then you surely deserve at least that much time behind bars for neglecting just about every firearm safety rule ever created. Lol at the mention of Johannes Mehserles and the “high tension moment”. Wasn’t there video of this? It was super calm. Guy wasn’t resisting at all. One if the cops had just cuffed him, then this douchebag, Incompetent motherfucker whips out his gun, thinking it was his tazer, even though neither were required. Certainly tazing was not at all necessary, the guy was simply on a power trip, and then he murders the guy. Fucking murders him. He got two years? Fuck the officials involved in that travesty. P.S fuck anyone that says tablets are just as good as PCs. Took me over 5 minutes to change 3 words. And fuck the 5 minute rule too. Should be twice as long. And fuck auto spelling correct software!! Argh! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/56 "2013-03-27T02:13:40Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > P.S fuck anyone that says tablets are just as good as PCs. Sounds like someone has a shit tablet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/57 "2013-03-27T02:15:27Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > And you never, ever, point the gun at anyone you are not intending to shoot! That’s like, Rule One. Gun training classes should be offered, for pretty cheap, every place a gun is sold. That’s Rule 2, actually. The Rules: 1. The weapon is loaded. Always, always, always assume it’s loaded. All guns are loaded. It’s loaded right now. 2. Don’t point the gun at anything you don’t want to shoot. 3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are prepared to shoot. 4. Know your target and know what is behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/58 "2013-03-27T02:16:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > How much sympathy does a man who pointed a shotgun at his son’s head and pulled the trigger deserve? You know what? My fault for reading an RO thread. I’ll bow out now. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/59 "2013-03-27T02:18:12Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I know a couple of people who have won moderate lottery pay-offs. I also know a guy who had an accidental discharge while hunting when a tree limb (assumed) snagged the trigger of his shoulder slung gun. I know another guy who had an accidental discharge when he dropped his old, pos handgun (finger nowhere near the trigger). And I know a guy that accidentally discharged his gun while he was loading it (no details, I was a kid at the time). > > No injuries in any of those cases. Could have been, but all were generally safety conscious individuals. So the trigger was pulled in one instance (negligence), the gun fired when he dropped it (negligence), and the gun discharged while loading (probable negligence, but since he wasn’t pointing it at someone he was at least following some of the rules). When you have possession of the weapon, you are responsible for what happens with it. If it goes bang and you kill someone or destroy something, it’s your fault. Even in the case of a weapon like the SKS, notorious for [slamfiring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slamfire), if the rules are followed nobody will be injured. Not following the Four Rules constitutes negligence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/60 "2013-03-27T02:24:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s Rule 2, actually. > > The Rules: > > 1. The weapon is loaded. Always, always, always assume it’s loaded. All guns are loaded. It’s loaded right now. > 2. Don’t point the gun at anything you don’t want to shoot. > 3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are prepared to shoot. > 4. Know your target and know what is behind it. 2A. Never shoot anything you don’t want to kill. Sounds like a silly rule that doesn’t need to be said. But I’ve seen people who think you can “shoot to wound” and therefore underestimate the consequences of pulling the trigger. You should always assume anyone you hit is going to die and if you’re not prepared to accept that, don’t shoot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020.md?page=4)