# So you killed your kid while cleaning your gun. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020 "2013-03-26T17:03:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/161 "2013-03-28T17:16:59Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > I’m just glad you finally found something to do other than defend Dio the thread derailer. Thanks. That’s good enough for me. I like by the way that you are still able to invoke the Dio Show even given that he’s not been here for a very long time. Tell me again, who was it with the odd fixation with Dio? By the way, I still spend all of my time defending him, but only in my imagination, and with a tube sock in hand. Since of course it was all just because of my sexual attraction to him. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/162 "2013-03-28T17:25:52Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, I realize that it was really stupid of me to waste all the time and energy to explain all of that to **Kable**. Even if he understands what I wrote, he’ll still be claiming in a week or less that Kellermann reported that having long guns in the home was protective. > > I’m going to do something I never do here. Just to make me feel less stupid for investing the effort, could someone else let me know that they found that post helpful? Come on, even if you have to lie to me! Definitely helpful. Your biggest mistake of course was assuming that **Kable** has the brain power to comprehend statistics. (or big words for that matter) ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/163 "2013-03-28T17:33:58Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > “Accident” is too generous. “Accident” is when circumstances arise that could not reasonably be foreseen or prevented. > > What this guy did is the textbook definition of [“negligent discharge.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_discharge) Are you referring to the gun shot or moment of conceptualization? ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/164 "2013-03-28T17:45:03Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > “Accident” is too generous. “Accident” is when circumstances arise that could not reasonably be foreseen or prevented. > > What this guy did is the textbook definition of [“negligent discharge.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_discharge) ERR: Are you referring to the gun shot or moment of conception? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/165 "2013-03-28T21:39:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I learned how to clean a gun when I was a kid. So did I. > [@](#): > > Of course, and keep your finger off the trigger, and you might want to unload that thing before you clean it. In fact I can’t think of any guns that clean very well while loaded. Oh, you mean a multi-layered approach, like, and I’m just spitballing here, don’t handle a weapon with kids in the room if you don’t have a real need to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/166 "2013-03-28T21:46:22Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Funny enough, I’d agree if they were being nice. Most pistols _are_ too much for me; I have absolutely no wrist control. Shotguns, though? Gimme. And one glorious afternoon in Vegas I got to fire an MP5K which was sooooooo sweeeeeeet…I can’t even tell you. If that is a girl gun, I am all for it! This makes me love you more than I ever did before, Mika. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/167 "2013-03-28T22:06:49Z")
My ex still misses me, but her aim is improving. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/168 "2013-03-28T22:49:54Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, I realize that it was really stupid of me to waste all the time and energy to explain all of that to **Kable**. Even if he understands what I wrote, he’ll still be claiming in a week or less that Kellermann reported that having long guns in the home was protective. > > I’m going to do something I never do here. Just to make me feel less stupid for investing the effort, could someone else let me know that they found that post helpful? Come on, even if you have to lie to me! Dude, you know I’m in the front row at meetings of your fan club. And, yes, your post was helpful. (Or, maybe, that just means I agreed with it. Sigh…) But the sad part is, yeah, you’re right, in a week or two, the jackass in question will be posting his same drivel all over again, claiming he proved you wrong, claiming that guns prevent crime and make people safer, etc. (Very clever of Congress, really: when they saw studies that showed that guns were harmful…they banned studies…) ETA: Yeah, I miss **Diogenes the Cynic** also. Had some character flaws, but, damn, he knew his subject matter! ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/169 "2013-03-28T23:33:42Z")
**Trinopus** , being reminded that you’re reading makes me feel bad for being so mean. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/170 "2013-03-28T23:55:35Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Lying that you read it and highlighted anything it in related to your claim. Lying that Kellermann reported that long guns were related to lower rates of homicide. I have the highlighted study right in front of me right now, just as before. It still found long guns in the home associated with lower rates of homicide. So sorry. > [@](#): > > I’ve done this repeatedly. Table 4 shows all the variables that remained in the model after accounting for the effects of the other significant predictors. That’s the cite. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The headings on the table and the text makes this clear. Table 3 says “Univariate analysis of hypothesized risk or protection factors…” This is a list of possible factors related to homicide outcomes, and it is where you see long guns show up. Table 3 is the table trust most. Table 4 has been manipulated. Table 4 specifically says 72 pairs were excluded due to missing data. It seems particularly sketch that the highest risk factor found in table 3 by a considerale margin “Case subject or control had trouble at work because of drinking” didn’t make the analysis. We could go on to mention Kellerman held out on sharing his numbers and when he finally did his results could not be replicated but that would probably be to much for your pea brain to process. > [@](#): > > Table 4 says “Variables included in the final conditional logistic regression model…” It includes “home rented,” “lived alone,” “fight in the home,” “house member arrested,” “used illicit drugs,” and “guns kept in the home.” That’s the cite, dummy. That’s great moron, but your cite does not back up your initial claim no matter how much you write to disguise the fact. I do appreciate the effort however. > [@](#): > > Do you know what an odds ratio is? It’s a measure of association, and an odds ratio of 1.0 means that there is no relationship between two variables. The odds of an outcome are exactly the same for each unit of the predictor. > > An odds ratio below 1.0 means that the relationship is inverted, so that increasing units of the predictor are associated with a reduction in the likelihood of the outcome occurring. So, an ignorant person would look at Table 3 and think, “Aha, the odds ratio for shotguns is 0.7 and for rifles is 0.8. This means the odds are lower for homicide when either one is present.” Great so you do understand that Kellerman found long guns in the home were assocated with decreased risk of homicide. Good for you. > [@](#): > > The problem is that this interpretation requires that you do not look at the numbers immediately to the right of the odds ratio. You see where it actually says “0.7 (0.5 – 1.1)” in the row for shotguns, and “0.8 (0.5 – 1.3)” in the row for rifles? The numbers in parentheses are the 95% confidence interval. This will tell you whether the statistic is significant or not. What it means is that you cannot, at a .05 level, be sure that the actual odds ratio does not include 1.0, or even 1.1 (or 1.3 for rifles). This means that **even in the univariate relationship, rifles and shotguns are not protective**. That’s even before accounting for confounding by other variables, which is what Table 4 shows you. Surely Hentor you are smart enough to know that just because a study does not show statistical significance does not mean there is no effect, and for any value with a odds ratio less than 1, the odds are more likely that there is a negative effect than a positive effect or no effect. You know that right? Or do I have to learn it to you? That said the fact is that Kellerman found that homes with a rifle or shotgun had a less than average risk of homicide. Yes? Come on you can admit it. So all the risk he reported was associated with handguns, then he went on to conclude that people should not keep any guns in their home. See that’s the bullshit that lost him CDC funding. > [@](#): > > Yes. I see the methods section, which explains why variables were omitted. They were omitted because they were not statistically significant. Please cite the paragraph and lines where it says that. I’m just happy to see my side is winning the gun debate in the public and your side has squandered their temporary emotionally charged advantage. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/171 "2013-03-29T00:30:59Z")
Okay, **Trinopus** , I don’t feel so bad anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/172 "2013-03-29T00:34:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, **Trinopus** , I don’t feel so bad anymore. Just admit I’m right and you’re wrong Hentor. It’s not asking too much. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/173 "2013-03-29T00:49:11Z")
And you thought it could take up to a _week_, **Hentor**? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/174 "2013-03-29T00:52:16Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And you thought it could take up to a _week_, **Hentor**? Yeah, I just had to get off work. It don’t take long to see through pea brain Hentor’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/175 "2013-03-29T00:55:32Z")
Your objection to registration is you shouldn’t have to register to exercise your constitutional rights? Don’t you have to register to vote? The expenses for extensive gun ownership are manifest, emergency room/medical costs, police, court, clean up costs, families losing breadwinners, falling into poverty and social assistance, to name just a few. The burden of those costs should be on gun owners, not those who refrain from owning guns. Nobody cares that 15 guns would be prohibitively expensive due to insurance costs. Anymore than they care that 15 cars are prohibitively expensive to insure. What is it the Right is so found of saying to those working full time jobs and still can’t afford health insurance for their families? Oh yeah, I remember, “if they don’t like it they should get a better job so they can afford it!” ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/176 "2013-03-29T01:23:50Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Okay, **Trinopus** , I don’t feel so bad anymore. Sometimes, the ends justify the meanness. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/177 "2013-03-29T01:30:00Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Your objection to registration is you shouldn’t have to register to exercise your constitutional rights? It’s one objection. I’ve talked of more. > [@](#): > > Don’t you have to register to vote? As I recall, yes. > [@](#): > > The expenses for extensive gun ownership are manifest, emergency room/medical costs, police, court, clean up costs, families losing breadwinners, falling into poverty and social assistance, to name just a few. The burden of those costs should be on gun owners, not those who refrain from owning guns. That’s all nice, but the benefit of owning guns is my family didn’t lose a breadwinner. Same with a lot of other families. > [@](#): > > Nobody cares that 15 guns would be prohibitively expensive due to insurance costs. I care. I have a lot more than 15 guns. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/178 "2013-03-29T01:54:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I care. I have a lot more than 15 guns. See, folks like you are the exact reason you can’t say there are or will soon be more guns in this country than people and draw any meaningful conclusions about how many people in this country will handle a gun in their lifetime. If you have a group of 30 people who own 35 guns between them, that could mean that all or most of the group has a gun, with some folks owning 2. Or, if you have someone like you in the group and one person owns 20 guns, it could mean maybe half of the group owns a gun. If you put 2 people like yourself in the group and they each own 15 guns each, that would mean the vast majority of the group doesn’t own a gun at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/179 "2013-03-29T02:04:11Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > See, folks like you are the exact reason you can’t say there are or will soon be more guns in this country than people and draw any meaningful conclusions about how many people in this country will handle a gun in their lifetime. I’ve taken a lot more than 15 friends shooting in my life. How many people handle a gun in their lifetime is a different figure from how many will own one. There are polls on how many people own guns and how many households have guns in them, and people like me don’t change those polls. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020/180 "2013-03-29T02:15:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > How many people handle a gun in their lifetime is a different figure from how many will own one. There are polls on how many people own guns and how many households have guns in them, and people like me don’t change those polls. Fair enough, but you also can’t really extrapolate anything all that useful about how many people will handle a gun from how many people live in households have guns in them. Because not everyone who lives in a house where there’s a gun will ever lay a hand on the thing. Around here at least, it’s pretty damn common for a guy to have multiple hunting rifles and his wife/kids never handle any of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-killed-your-kid-while-cleaning-your-gun/654020.md?page=10)