# So you say that you hate the United States…. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444 "2002-05-29T21:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/41 "2002-05-30T14:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*The dry counties, the 3.2 states, the fact that kegs of Bass _always_ go stale because I’m apparantly the only one in this godforsaken town who drinks it . . . barbarians, all of you!. \*\* Sorry **andros** , I’m afraid the only Barbarian around here lives north of the 49th parallel. And if one more person brings up WWII as a justification for anything, I’m gonna smack 'em upside the head! ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/42 "2002-05-30T15:35:57Z")
For the love of all things holy **UnoMondo**. I am not stating in any way that I think that people should “bow down” to the US. Honest. I am wondering if you read my posts at all. I think that I am saying that the US is not any more “evil” than the rest of the word governments, and in some ways has its heart in the right place. For the record, my politics lie somewhere between libertarianism and anarchism, call me a Heinleinder. Some of the responses to this thread, however, intrigue me quite a lot. I think it goes something like this. Me: “Hey, maybe there are some things about the USA that are not so bad”. Response: “You are a George Bush loving, knee jerk patriot that wants me to bow down to the UAS and have a flag tattooed on my ass!” SIGH ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/43 "2002-05-30T15:41:54Z")
I suppose it’s the reflection of the opposite viewpoint: Me: “Hey, maybe there are some things about the USA that are not so good”. Response: “You are a communist loving, knee jerk pinko that wants me to bow down to the UN/French/communists and have a hammer and sickle tattooed on my ass!” Not that I’m accusing you of saying that, obviously, but I’ve seen that kind of implied insult on these boards before. Guess there are over-reacting types on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/44 "2002-05-30T15:45:54Z")
> [@](#): > > that wants me to bow down to the UAS and have a flag tattooed on my ass! You know, maybe more foreigners should have the USA flag tattooed on their asses. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/45 "2002-05-30T15:50:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Binarydrone \* > \*\*For the love of all things holy **UnoMondo**. I am not stating in any way that I think that people should “bow down” to the US. Honest. I am wondering if you read my posts at all. > > I think that I am saying that the US is not any more “evil” than the rest of the word governments, and in some ways has its heart in the right place.\*\* But your statement was based in part on the untruth that the U.S. gives a significant amount of aid to foreign countries. This has been repeatedly disproven on this boards so I can only assume you are preaching jingoism (or didn’t notice the myriad posts on the US’s crappy foreign aid policy, in which case my bad). UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/46 "2002-05-30T16:04:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\*But your statement was based in part on the untruth that the U.S. gives a significant amount of aid to foreign countries. This has been repeatedly disproven on this boards so I can only assume you are preaching jingoism (or didn’t notice the myriad posts on the US’s crappy foreign aid policy, in which case my bad). > \*\* I’m curious. Just which countries do you admire for their political integrity or succesful foreign aid policy? ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/47 "2002-05-30T16:06:55Z")
Isn’t comparison of foreign aid on a per capita basis rather unfair considering the rather significant population difference the U.S. has over most other first-world countries? Wouldn’t foreign aid as a percentage of GDP be a more reasonable comparison? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/48 "2002-05-30T16:33:41Z")
First, \*\* UnuMondo\*\* as you can see by my post count, I have not been around the SDMB all that long. That said, I have not seen (or noticed anyway) any threads about how bad the US foreign aid is. However, I was interested enough to do a little research. Here is the often neglected (but beloved) [CITE.](http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp?so=d2001#oda). What I find interesting: While it is true that in terms of percentage of Gross Domestic Product, the USA is dead last in sending aid, in terms of actual dollars they are first. Another interesting tidbit from that site is that (and this was an agreement reached at the earth summit in 1992) all “rich” nations agreed to contribute 0.7% of the Gross Domestic product to development assistance. Most of the nations do not meet that goal. So, this is the thing. I am on the fence here. On the one hand, it is embarrassing that the country that can give so much, gives so proportionately little. On the other hand, it really does look as if we give the most actual dollars. So, I would say that giving the most amount of actual dollars (globally) is “significant”, although arguably not significant proportionately. Finally, on a personal note, I believe that the tone of my posts in this thread have been mild and well reasoned. Yet you accuse me of “preaching jingoism”. I take this to be a pejorative term, and do not deserve that. As I have stated, I am not a “patriot”, I do not own a gun, vote republican or drink beer. Point in fact, I do not think that I am preaching anything here, but you will filter what you read as you must. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/49 "2002-05-30T16:44:13Z")
> [@](#): > > As I have stated, I am not a “patriot”, I do not own a gun, vote republican or drink beer. I’m three for four. Does that make me three-quarters Jingo? ---
**Author:** ![jackelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@jackelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackelope)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/50 "2002-05-30T18:47:05Z")
I drink beer and own a gun… but I’m also a member of Amnesty International. This is clearly a hot-button issue for a lot of people (I know I got all fired up several times reading these), but I would like to point out that I think the OP meant it was fashionable _among Americans_ to bash America. I could be wrong. **UnoMondo** , could you post a link to the info from the CIA Factbook? I’m looking through it and I don’t find any info on U.S. foreign aid beyond “ODA, $6.9 billion (1997),” which, obviously, is out of date. Perusing the [globalissues.org](http://globalissues.org) site posted above, several things leap out at me: - First off, whoever puts this site together needs to hire a good copyeditor. But that’s another point. - I’m curious as to what kind of aid this represents, as well. It is referred to as “official development assistance”; does this exclude things like the troops we sent to Somalia? Special-case aid we send when Bangladesh floods again? Or do these figures represent all foreign aid sent by the U.S.? I’m not taking a position on this, just trying to figure it out. - The U.S. had the fifth-largest increase in foreign aid last year (in total $), a jump of 7.0%. Many countries decreased their aid spending. Japan, we read, decreased foreign aid by 12%. Ah, but wait; the yen fell dramatically against the dollar last year, so maybe they were trying to increase it and it’s just fluctuating exchange rates… Nope. In real dollars, Japan cut aid by 18%. - The agreement at Rio was that industrialized nations would donate 0.7% of their GNP to foreign aid. We’re giving 1.1%. What’s the problem? - This is interesting: “In fact, it is cruel irony to note that the UK refuses to pay to the USA almost exactly the same as it is demanding from developing nations. Yet the UK has owed USA this money since the First World War.” [Cite](http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/Pressure.asp) - Finally, where does the assumption arise that the U.S. isn’t doing “enough”? From what premise do we derive the idea that America “should” be giving more than it is? We’ve been giving many billions of dollars for many years, and so far, _it isn’t helping_. When do we say, “OK, everything’s fine now, we’re finished; everyone get back to work”? These aren’t rhetorical questions; if someone can answer them, please do. - There are lots more issues involved here, of course, such as the money the U.S. spends on its own citizens (remember us?) and the amount other nations send _us_ in aid ($0, of course). But I have a headache now and I’m tired of all this. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/51 "2002-05-30T19:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\* > > Hey **Binary Drone** , you want people to bow down before the US because it “tries to help people,” but you should know the US is _dead last_ in foreign aid per capita among first world nations. \*\* Dead last, eh? So, does Iceland provide more foreign aid per capita than the US? Just a question. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Let’s look at a few reasons why I detest the US government: > [ul] > > [li]Amnesty International named SAVAK (the Shah’s secret police) the worst human rights violators on the planet in 1976, although the US wholeheartedly supported that regime[/li] \*\* Did they sleep through the Khmer Rouge? > [@](#): > > \*\* > [list] > [li]The US has an intelligence program in place, the so-called ECHELON, which is used for such noble things as economic espionage and keeping tabs on followers of liberation theology in South America.[/li][/ul] \*\* Holy fucking shit! Somebody alert Human Rights Watch- the US _spies_ on people! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*\* > its corporations are damaging the cultures of other countries though ceaseless marketing of American products and stupid Hollywood blockbusters. > > UnuMondo \*\* 'Cause it’s not like the people of those foreign lands actually CHOOSE TO BUY AMERICAN PRODUCTS, eh, UnoMondo? Face it, we’re not pointing guns to heads and saying, “Buy Coke or die, fucker!”. ---
**Author:** ![asrivkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9d8465/32.png) [@asrivkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asrivkin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/52 "2002-05-31T00:03:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Let’s look at a few reasons why I detest the US government: > > The CIA overthrew the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1953, creating a civil war that resulted in the deaths of 65,000 people. > > In the same decade, the US overthrew the democratically elected government of Mossadeq in Iran, about the only truly progressive government to ever exist in the region. The government the U.S. installed, headed by the shah, was famous for extrajudicial killings. Amnesty International named SAVAK (the Shah’s secret police) the worst human rights violators on the planet in 1976, although the US wholeheartedly supported that regime You know, I fail to see the relevance in 50-year old events as “justification” for hating the USA. Lots of things have happened since the Guatemala and Iran coups-- do we still detest Switzerland for denying women the right to vote until the 19-freaking-70s? Do we consider the French government unstable because there was nearly a military coup in 1958? Do we hate Spain because they had a bona fide fascist in charge until 25 years ago? Of course not. If 50-year-old complaints are valid, I bring up the Marshall Plan as a counterexample for the benefit of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/53 "2002-05-31T12:33:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by asrivkin \* > \*\* > You know, I fail to see the relevance in 50-year old events as “justification” for hating the USA. Lots of things have happened since the Guatemala and Iran coups-- do we still detest Switzerland for denying women the right to vote until the 19-freaking-70s? Do we consider the French government unstable because there was nearly a military coup in 1958? Do we hate Spain because they had a bona fide fascist in charge until 25 years ago? > \*\* The United States has not changed it policy towards Central and South America, it still believes it has the right to continually influence covertly and overtly the democratically elected governments of the region. Look at the recent coup in Venezuela which, according to leaks from the Intelligence Community, had a great deal of American support. Duncan Campbell’s report on ECHELON two years ago showed that the US spies against followers of liberation theology to keep the movement in check. As liberation theology is one of the only political philosophies that could modernize the region without causing a great deal of harm, the US should be criticized for trying to undermine it. It’s just another link in the chain of incompassionate foreign policy towards the region. Until the US government has a foreign policy in place which respects the dignity of Central and South America, it will be based on the same culture that oversaw the overthrowing of Guatemala’s and Chile’s government. Keep in mind that some people currently in Bush’s administration, such as Otto Reich, were involved in shameful deeds in Nicaragua in the 80’s. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/54 "2002-05-31T12:41:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\* > Holy fucking shit! Somebody alert Human Rights Watch- the US _spies_ on people! > > :rolleyes: > \*\* Engaging in economic espionage is in no way acceptable, and I don’t believe people should just deal with it because “everyone does that.” The US is not alone, I know, the other UKUSA countries do it just as much, as do the French. But spying must have its limits. Furthermore, a great deal of the US’s intelligence gathering is against private individuals (which violates the local laws of a number of countries) and diplomatic traffic (which violates the Vienna Convention). The US is not alone, but I criticize the US most because I’d like to see my country improve. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 'Cause it’s not like the people of those foreign lands actually CHOOSE TO BUY AMERICAN PRODUCTS, eh, UnoMondo? Face it, we’re not pointing guns to heads and saying, “Buy Coke or die, fucker!”. \*\* Constant advertising from foreign sources has a way of killing local culture. Most Europeans use American products only because the advertising has created a setting where they feel obliged to. In the beginning there was resistance to American influences, it’s not the European’s fault that the resistance failed, so it much be the American companies’ fault that Coke and McDonald’s for example have wiped out local charm. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/55 "2002-05-31T14:43:56Z")
Right - because Europeans are known to be weak-willed and easily influenced. They’re like children, really. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/56 "2002-05-31T16:26:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Face it, we’re not pointing guns to heads and saying, “Buy Coke or die, fucker!”. \*\* That would have been somewhat preferable to “I’d like to teach the world to sing” though, for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![Sparc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Sparc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparc)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/57 "2002-05-31T16:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posits UnoMondo_ > Most Europeans use American products only because the advertising has created a setting where they feel obliged to. In the beginning there was resistance to American influences, it’s not the European’s fault that the resistance failed, so it much be the American companies’ fault that Coke and McDonald’s for example have wiped out local charm. Crap! First of all we’re not drooling moronic robots. Second of all the alleged wipe out of local culture in Europe is about as true as the fact that Ronald McDonald now serves BMs at all the fish eateries at Fisherman’s Wharf in SF. When I go out later tonight, I’m pretty sure I’ll see a fair score more people eating Sauerbraten, Schweinswürstl, Knödel, Haxen and Obazda than Big Macs. In the Beergardens we might drink one or the other Coke against our hangovers, but be sure as hellfire that we’ll be drinking a fair more Helles Bier on this sunny Friday evening than is consumed in any city of the same size in the States in a friggin’ year. To boot a good many folks will be dressed in charming lederhosen and dirndles, just like you guys get to see at the German pavilion in Epcot, quaint eh? Give us a break from the patronizing crap that you fire off in both directions of the Atlantic puddle will ya! As always mankind picks and chooses from the smorgasbord of culture and what works or is well liked sticks. Thereby not being said that we can’t influence the choices with advertisement, but I’d like to see you force the majority of any population to drink a soda every day that they don’t like… Your statement reeks of loads of Pavlovian socialist bullshit. Sparc ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/58 "2002-05-31T17:23:45Z")
I recently spent a month working in Frankfurt am Main. The company rented me a small apartment on Textorstrasse, near the intersection with Schweizerstrasse. The whole time I was there, I saw . . . let’s see, one McDonald’s at the Sudbahnhof, one on the Hauptwache, and one other. That’s three. I also saw one Burger King, also on the Hauptwache. On the other hand, just in the four or five blocks between my apartment and the river, I saw about a dozen or more local restaurants, many of them good ol’ Frankfurt apfelwein hauser. And they were always packed with people. Always. American products have manifestly not wiped out European culture. Not by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![miamouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@miamouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miamouse)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/59 "2002-05-31T19:23:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\*I recently spent a month working in Frankfurt am Main. The company rented me a small apartment on Textorstrasse, near the intersection with Schweizerstrasse. The whole time I was there, I saw . . . let’s see, one McDonald’s at the Sudbahnhof, one on the Hauptwache, and one other. That’s three. I also saw one Burger King, also on the Hauptwache. > > On the other hand, just in the four or five blocks between my apartment and the river, I saw about a dozen or more local restaurants, many of them good ol’ Frankfurt apfelwein hauser. And they were always packed with people. Always. > > American products have manifestly not wiped out European culture. Not by a long shot. \*\* Along these lines, my cousins (in Germany) always joked that you would only find Americans in McDonalds and Burger King. So maybe they’re only feeding the tourists? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444/60 "2002-05-31T19:52:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\* > Constant advertising from foreign sources has a way of killing local culture. Most Europeans use American products only because the advertising has created a setting where they feel obliged to. In the beginning there was resistance to American influences, it’s not the European’s fault that the resistance failed, so it much be the American companies’ fault that Coke and McDonald’s for example have wiped out local charm. > > UnuMondo \*\* The posters afterwards point out that that statement is pretty much crap, but I’ll leave this: Foreign products and advertising is not cultural destruction. Cultural destruction is banning a cultural group from speaking their own language in public or broadcasting anything in their language (a la Kurds in Turkey). Cultural destruction is the destruction of 4,000 ethnic villages with nerve gas and bulldozers, killing over 200,000, while nations (coughFrancecough) still sale the perpetrators arms (Iraq and the Kurds). A BigMac is not fucking cultural destruction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-say-that-you-hate-the-united-states/111444.md?page=4)