# So You Think You Can Protest **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 27, 2007, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319 "2007-07-27T02:24:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/81 "2007-07-29T01:06:49Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I don’t believe protests are completely without value, I just believe they very rarely are a motivational force. … Real changes happen through the court systems, the ballot box, and over many years of gradual societal change. [/QUOTE] Do you not believe that protests are a motivational force for societal change? If not, what do you believe does cause societal change? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/82 "2007-07-29T01:25:00Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] The problem is, when people are often interviewed you find out that protesting both during Vietnam and during the run up to the current war in Iraq was like a “vacation” for these people. They’re protesting because its fun, not because they have any greater concerns. Did some people genuinely care? Sure. But most of them were just wastrel scofflaws. [/QUOTE] If you’ve ever protested in Montreal in February (hint: -30C with the wind chill) you wouldn’t describe it as “fun.” If I think hard, I can still remember the pain in my ears. And yet, 100,000 people protested in Montreal against the Iraq war in February 2003, and 200,000 people turned out a month later when the weather was scarcely better. And that’s not the only dead-of-winter protest I’ve attended where people turned out in droves for something they believed in. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/83 "2007-07-29T01:37:37Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Do you not believe that protests are a motivational force for societal change? If not, what do you believe does cause societal change? [/QUOTE] I think protests reflect dissatisfaction. How does a protest change minds, really? I mean, how many people here have changed their minds or ideals throughout their life? I’m willing to bet most of us felt a certain way about something in the past and no longer feel that way any more. I initially supported President Bush pretty strongly, now I don’t so much any more (although I still support the Iraq War, and still wouldn’t have traded Kerry for Bush.) Protests against the war haven’t changed that, rather the actions of the President and my reaction to them have changed how I feel about the man. As another example, there was a time when I felt a flat tax rate was ideal. Over many years, I decided a flat tax rate wasn’t a good idea. That came about through lots of life experience, reading various articles, et cetera. It was a gradual thing, I think most changes happen gradually. For example with the Civil Rights movement, I think it was a very gradual process (that started in the 19th century.) I do not believe the protests changed minds. How would a protest change minds, anyway? As matt\_mcl says, protests don’t convey nuanced thought. They just make noise to make a statement, I have a hard time understanding how that can change minds. Is it really your assertion that protests are a major source of societal change? That just doesn’t make any sense, societal change takes a long period of time and a protest only takes up a few hours (or days, at most.) Protests _may_ factor in, but as I said, I don’t think all the civil rights protests combined had as much influence as the NAACP’s lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/84 "2007-07-29T01:40:15Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] If you’ve ever protested in Montreal in February (hint: -30C with the wind chill) you wouldn’t describe it as “fun.” If I think hard, I can still remember the pain in my ears. And yet, 100,000 people protested in Montreal against the Iraq war in February 2003, and 200,000 people turned out a month later when the weather was scarcely better. And that’s not the only dead-of-winter protest I’ve attended where people turned out in droves for something they believed in. [/QUOTE] Cool, you came up with a counterpoint. I never said everyone protests for fun, so it was kind of meaningless to do so, but hey, you got to share your story, that’s always cool! It might be worth noting that Canada didn’t really have any influence whatsoever on whether or not the war in Iraq happened, and I don’t remember Canada ever seriously considering involvement in said war–so I’m not really sure what kind of influence a protest in Montreal was supposed to have. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/85 "2007-07-29T01:52:43Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Is it really your assertion that protests are a major source of societal change? That just doesn’t make any sense, societal change takes a long period of time and a protest only takes up a few hours (or days, at most.) Protests _may_ factor in, but as I said, I don’t think all the civil rights protests combined had as much influence as the NAACP’s lawsuits. [/QUOTE] I believe that protests draw attention, and (to some extent) start people to think. Yes, I agree with you that there is more to it than that. But let’s pretend I live in 1963, have shit for brains, and I have never heard of racial discrimination. (I apologize for taking this away from Vietnam; it’s just my best analogy.) I happen, while my kid is sitting in front of the TV and channel-flipping for me, upon a news report of the March on Washington. MLK’s speech does not convince me, but it does make me think, “What the fuck?” So I do some reading, some learning, and I realize the man has a point. There are then two things I do: I start voting for politicians who support that point, and I start to help fund the NAACP’s legal battles. It’s about awareness, **Martin**. It’s about leading a horse to water _and_ getting him to think. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/86 "2007-07-29T01:54:49Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] It might be worth noting that Canada didn’t really have any influence whatsoever on whether or not the war in Iraq happened, and I don’t remember Canada ever seriously considering involvement in said war–so I’m not really sure what kind of influence a protest in Montreal was supposed to have. [/QUOTE] To ensure that the Canadian government _was_ dissuaded from participation in the Iraq war. I’ll note that Canadian troops are serving and dying in Afghanistan even as I type. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/87 "2007-07-29T02:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] And yet, 100,000 people protested in Montreal against the Iraq war in February 2003, and 200,000 people turned out a month later when the weather was scarcely better. And that’s not the only dead-of-winter protest I’ve attended where people turned out in droves for something they believed in. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you can’t diss French fries and expect les Quebecois to take it lying down. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/88 "2007-07-29T02:36:34Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] What’s your point about 2003? The Iraq war is going very well right now, the only people who say otherwise have a strong partisan interest in promoting Iraqi civil war and genocide. [/QUOTE] Oh? [Really?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20013793/) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/89 "2007-07-29T02:43:49Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] To ensure that the Canadian government _was_ dissuaded from participation in the Iraq war. I’ll note that Canadian troops are serving and dying in Afghanistan even as I type. [/QUOTE] I’ll note that it’s night out where I’m at, as I type. One thing doesn’t have anything to do with another. While some people may view the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq as being linked, I don’t. Jean Chretien opposed involvement in Iraq from the very beginning, when the leader of a country is opposed to involvement in a war, it’s pretty certain said involvement won’t be happening. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/90 "2007-07-29T02:44:54Z")
[QUOTE=Zakalwe] Oh? [Really?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20013793/) [/QUOTE] Yup, [really](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118558823756181036.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/91 "2007-07-29T02:57:53Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Cool, you came up with a counterpoint. I never said everyone protests for fun, so it was kind of meaningless to do so, but hey, you got to share your story, that’s always cool! It might be worth noting that Canada didn’t really have any influence whatsoever on whether or not the war in Iraq happened, and I don’t remember Canada ever seriously considering involvement in said war–so I’m not really sure what kind of influence a protest in Montreal was supposed to have. [/QUOTE] Protesting was not fun. There were groups of righties that were perfectly willing to beat marchers senseless. There was a lot of fear to overcome. In Detroit there was a heavily financed group called Breakthrough that would attack people leaving the marches when they were separated. The police will crack a head and enjoy it. Every march was dangerous and definately not fun. If you went to enough of them our government would start a dossier and investigate you. You could have trouble with any thing official They made it ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/92 "2007-07-29T03:09:50Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Protesting was not fun. There were groups of righties that were perfectly willing to beat marchers senseless. There was a lot of fear to overcome. In Detroit there was a heavily financed group called Breakthrough that would attack people leaving the marches when they were separated. The police will crack a head and enjoy it. Every march was dangerous and definately not fun. If you went to enough of them our government would start a dossier and investigate you. You could have trouble with any thing official They made it ugly. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’m sure the thousands of people who never ran afoul of the law and were drunk/high at all those protests (both during the Vietnam war and Iraq) weren’t having _any_ fun. As everyone knows, protesting is serious business, to prove it, protesters are always sure to remind you how serious and important it is! Right before/after they chug down a fifth of liquor or light up another joint. Some protests are probably pretty genuinely terrible (like most civil rights protests.) But a lot of people all throughout history have used protesting as a guise for just engaging in all kinds of other bullshit. In the 19th and 18th centuries it used to be much more common for protests to just be called riots, and the rioters, while usually set off by an unpopular political act (I think I read once that London had something like 50+ riots in a relatively short time span during the reign of George III) would result in the rioters/protesters making off with tons of looted property and such. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/93 "2007-07-29T03:13:53Z")
Did the marches change anything? You better believe i. Part of the reason the Viet Nam war got rejected was the reporters in the country on their own. They got stories up close and personal. They were free to write and take photographs. This time the reporters were embedded. read ,under control, know where they bare every second and in a way become part of a unit losing objectivity. Everyday briefings given on TV by Rummy and the chosen general of the day. Showing military pictures from a military point of view. They were not letting that happen again. Protesting can not be done near the White House anymore. There is a huge zone isolating it and protests are forced into specified areas. Suppose that was an accident.?: TV control of the war was all the same. They ran the reporting of the war like a business. No coincidence there , war is business. They control it all. By using the hell out of existing soldiers and not drafting ,they eliminated another field of protest. They lowered taxes to make people think the war was free of stress. Yea there were a hell of a lot of changes. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/94 "2007-07-29T03:34:39Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Yup, [really](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118558823756181036.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries). [/QUOTE] I offer a hard news story and you give me an op-ed piece written by a fucking [**WHITE HOUSE STAFFER**](http://www.whitehouse.gov/results/leadership/bio_505.html) - that’s right, Peter Wehner is the Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of Strategic Initiatives? Okay, dude. From the summary of your piece (I’m not registering to read 'Pubbie porn): > [@](#): > > Attack levels in Anbar have reached a two-year low. Ramadi, once among the most dangerous cities in Iraq, is now dramatically safer. Violence in Fallujah has declined. Al Qaeda’s networks and safe havens are being disrupted beyond anything we have seen before. And yet, May 2007 was the third deadliest month for US troops since the war began. I’m happy to note that US troop deaths have trended down for June & July (at least so far), but before [we celebrate too much](http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6808227,00.html)… > [@AP Wire](#): > > `We've started to see a slow but gradual reduction in casualties, and it continues in July,'' he [The No. 2 commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno] said at a news conference. `It’s an initial positive sign, but I would argue we need a bit more time to make an assessment whether it’s a true trend.‘’ > Nevertheless, the daily average for U.S. troop deaths so far in July is 2.46 - higher than the daily average of 2.25 last year. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Iraqi deaths, while down in June are already greater for July than June. Same source > [@AP Wire](#): > > With five days to go before the end of July, an Associated Press tally showed that at least 1,759 Iraqis were killed in war-related violence through July 26, a more than 7 percent increase over the 1,640 who were reported killed in all of June. Back to your op-ed “cite”… > [@](#): > > Shiite death-squad activity and executions in Baghdad have significantly decreased since January. Same source as above: > [@AP Wire](#): > > Victims of sectarian slayings were also on the rise. At least 723 bodies were found dumped across Iraq so far in July, or an average of nearly 28 a day, compared with 19 a day in June, when 563 bodies were reported found, according to the AP tally Back to Peter Wehner’s world (oh, and did I mention that Mr. Wehner works for the White House? I did? Just checking.)… > [@](#): > > A soccer fan waves the Iraqi flag while riding his motor scooter in central Baghdad after Iraq defeated Vietnam 2-0 in the quarterfinals of the Asian Cup, Saturday, July 21, 2007. Followed immediately by the death of more than 75 people in two separate car bombing attacks (do I need to cite this too? - oh [okay](http://www.kansascity.com/451/story/209295.html))… > [@AP Wire](#): > > Two car bombs tore through crowds of revelers in two Baghdad neighborhoods, killing 50 people after Wednesday’s semifinal against South Korea. But don’t worry, that was just an isolated event right? Well… > [@AP Wire](#): > > “We also will urge people not to celebrate in groups and not go near security forces,” [Interior Ministry spokesman Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim] Khalaf said. “The terrorists intend to kill as many people as they can in such events. We will also implement tough measures against those who shoot into the air.” Yeah, things are just fucking peachy in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/95 "2007-07-29T03:38:08Z")
I’m not interested in shoveling troll food, but I’d like to point out that the Communists involved in the anti-war movement were under party discipline, and were not hippies. They were directed to wear shirts with collars, and no facial hair, according to William Edward Leuchtenburg. They were the people who, according to one hippie, would “go carrying pictures of Chaiman Mao.” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/96 "2007-07-29T04:42:04Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Yeah, I’m sure the thousands of people who never ran afoul of the law and were drunk/high at all those protests (both during the Vietnam war and Iraq) weren’t having _any_ fun. As everyone knows, protesting is serious business, to prove it, protesters are always sure to remind you how serious and important it is! Right before/after they chug down a fifth of liquor or light up another joint. Some protests are probably pretty genuinely terrible (like most civil rights protests.) But a lot of people all throughout history have used protesting as a guise for just engaging in all kinds of other bullshit. In the 19th and 18th centuries it used to be much more common for protests to just be called riots, and the rioters, while usually set off by an unpopular political act (I think I read once that London had something like 50+ riots in a relatively short time span during the reign of George III) would result in the rioters/protesters making off with tons of looted property and such. [/QUOTE] Where do you get this shit. Protests were sober events. The marchers represented a slice of society. They were from every walk of life. I never saw people getting stoned. i wont say no one did . I can not speak for every one However I was at many. I I think you are confusing the campus sit ins against draft laws and on campus protests. Those were a bit different. That was not what fueled the anti war demos all over the country. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/97 "2007-07-29T04:59:00Z")
**Martin Hyde** , Earlier you claimed that [you graduated from West Point in 1978](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7116830&postcount=261). I believe we discussed that year elsewhere. But then, you said you weren’t really an undergraduate. I personally don’t care. But I believe that would put you in high school when the war in Vietnam ended. You do seem to be very confused on your history and to have a penchant for thinking in stereotypes. > [@](#): > > Martin: the actual people who count in America, adult, middle class voters. You are trolling. How cheap. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/98 "2007-07-29T18:14:44Z")
Gandhi demonstrated that peaceful demonstrations of the people could even change a militant system the British Empire. In America we used it to fight for the rights of the blacks in America. That is where I first got involved. It shows that people of concience will act to assist the downtrodden. There are many in the world who actually do care and wish to have equality and peace. You come in direct conflict with the people who make profit off an existing system and resist change. The police are the army of the powerful If you do not believe that, you have not seen their actions against marchers. Ask any old peace demonstrator about the brutality we faced. But the seeds of black and white equality were sown with busted heads and faces. But when it became obvious that Viet Nam was being waged against the wishes of the people ,we took to the streets to show how many wanted change. The government always pretends to speak for the mass of the population. Nixon called them the silent majority. It became necessary to show him and Johnson did not speak for us. It is time again. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/99 "2007-07-29T18:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Gandhi demonstrated that peaceful demonstrations of the people could even change a militant system the British Empire. In America we used it to fight for the rights of the blacks in America. That is where I first got involved. It shows that people of concience will act to assist the downtrodden. There are many in the world who actually do care and wish to have equality and peace. You come in direct conflict with the people who make profit off an existing system and resist change. The police are the army of the powerful If you do not believe that, you have not seen their actions against marchers. Ask any old peace demonstrator about the brutality we faced. But the seeds of black and white equality were sown with busted heads and faces. But when it became obvious that Viet Nam was being waged against the wishes of the people ,we took to the streets to show how many wanted change. The government always pretends to speak for the mass of the population. Nixon called them the silent majority. It became necessary to show him and Johnson did not speak for us. It is time again. [/QUOTE] Amen again! The methods of Gandhi were proven effective in South Africa and in India. Where are his proponents today? The world is in such a crazy state today because NO ONE (in power) is espousing Ganghi’s view of non-violent, irresisatable peaceful revolution. As an aside, I had a discussion with my (Baptist) pastor about Gandhi. I told him that if Gandhi didn’t make it to Heaven, I don’t wanna go. He responded by telling me that the Jewish leaders asked Jesus what it means to be a good Jew, and he responded by giving an example of a good Samaritan. If anyone asks you what it means to be a good Xtian, tell them you aren’t sure, but you know of a good Hindu. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319/100 "2007-07-29T20:02:33Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Yeah, I’m sure the thousands of people who never ran afoul of the law and were drunk/high at all those protests (both during the Vietnam war and Iraq) weren’t having _any_ fun. As everyone knows, protesting is serious business, to prove it, protesters are always sure to remind you how serious and important it is! Right before/after they chug down a fifth of liquor or light up another joint. Some protests are probably pretty genuinely terrible (like most civil rights protests.) But a lot of people all throughout history have used protesting as a guise for just engaging in all kinds of other bullshit. In the 19th and 18th centuries it used to be much more common for protests to just be called riots, and the rioters, while usually set off by an unpopular political act (I think I read once that London had something like 50+ riots in a relatively short time span during the reign of George III) would result in the rioters/protesters making off with tons of looted property and such. [/QUOTE] No ,the protesters were not high. They were just citizens that cared about helping us all. They were definitely not high. Where do you get stupid crap like that. You get Fox channel where you live. There was no boozing and drugging. You are confusing the protests for weed legalization. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-think-you-can-protest/413319.md?page=6)