# Social Darwinism - the only logical explanation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468 "2011-01-30T01:34:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/101 "2011-02-06T04:31:33Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I manage to get by.šŸ˜‰ > > But so which of you is bullshit then? The former finance guy startup entrepreneur or the working class peopleā€™s champion? Because your claim seems diametrically opposed to your political position. You canā€™t possibly be serious when you write this. This is yet another example of the shallow, short-sighted, one-dimensional thinking that pervades _all_ pro-offshoring arguments. That and itā€™s not like I havenā€™t pointed out the Death Star-sized factual errors this in your argument before - when it was first pushed by others. Letā€™s leave out the fact that I never forget my working class roots. For you, obviously there is no such thing as caring for your fellow citizens _just because_. If youā€™re doing well, you must not care about other countrymen who are not. Once again, as I posted before, I run an insurance business. When workers are making more money they buy bigger ticket items and want to save for retirement or their kids. People like me prosper in these situations because they have assets they want us to protect and (if you have a series 6/7+63 license) invest for them. When workers buy homes and higher-value cars, guess what? That means better commish for me. When workers earn higher wages that increases the likelihood their purchases will be done with a higher percentage of cash on hand and they are less likely to lose it to repossession. ESPECIALLY in this economy where credit is tighter. The short of it: I benefit when the working class prospers. So thereā€™s my self-serving angle. Happy now? I have long wondered what is the cause behind the incredibly bad arguments presented here for globalism, and now itā€™s becoming a bit clearer. Your argument here clearly says you believe that successful entrepreneurs cannot be vocal advocates for the working class. This kind of limited thinking is downright appalling in magnitude, but also sadly common in the pro-globalism camp. > [@](#): > > And those regions (China and India) have some of the worst records in inequality, plutocracy, and environmental degredation. You think being poor in the US is tough, try it over there. The only reason they are growing is because they have adopted a more liberal western economic approach. Liberal? China have tariffs and both nations steal foreign intellectual property. China depresses their currency. You call that liberal? In exactly what universe does _that_ definition come from? You also ignore the fact that because of their policies they both have a growing middle class - unlike ours, which is shrinking. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/102 "2011-02-06T13:51:20Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You canā€™t possibly be serious when you write this. This is yet another example of the shallow, short-sighted, one-dimensional thinking that pervades _all_ pro-offshoring arguments. That and itā€™s not like I havenā€™t pointed out the Death Star-sized factual errors this in your argument before - when it was first pushed by others. > > Letā€™s leave out the fact that I never forget my working class roots. For you, obviously there is no such thing as caring for your fellow citizens _just because_. If youā€™re doing well, you must not care about other countrymen who are not. So why doesnā€™t your love and caring extend to the rest of the world? It is a FACT that globalism has enabled many countries like India and China to develop a middle class. It is also a FACT that the USA is the largest exporter and has the largest economy in the world. These are generally good things. It is also a FACT that the trend is towards MORE globalization, not less. And in spite of the picture you like to paint, people are not pro-outsourcing because they want to fuck over the poor and working class. They are pro-outsourcing because they believe it helps American companies stay competetive and that tarriffs and other forms of protectionism ultimately hurt the very poor and working class people they supposedly protect. Our current high levels of unemployment were not caused by outsourcing. They were caused by the near collapse of a financial system overburdened with debt. Caused, in no small part, by people like you who sell insurance and issue mortgages with no thought about anything other than their commissions. So why do you hate the poor so much? > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Liberal? China have tariffs and both nations steal foreign intellectual property. China depresses their currency. You call that liberal? In exactly what universe does _that_ definition come from? I said ā€œmoreā€ liberal. As in more liberal compared to the closed economy they had a few decades ago. China only started experiencing this miraculou growth once they opened their borders to foreign trade and loosened up their old planned communist economy a bit. Talk about one-dimensional thinking.:rolleyes: > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > You also ignore the fact that because of their policies they both have a growing middle class - unlike ours, which is shrinking. They are also starting from no middle class. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/103 "2011-02-06T16:03:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, you think that people are seriously discussing putting in place trade and monetary protectionism, ignoring the environmental laws that are on a countries books in favor of rapid expansion, poor worker rights and pay, and what amounts to a feudalistic view on business, with various government and military leaders actually having direct control of factories and such for their own gain? Who are the people who are seriously looking at the ā€˜Chinese modelā€™? Can you name some economic experts who are peer reviewed who believe that there is something the Chinese are doing that other countries should emulate? Because, on the surface, this seems a incredible claim, once one takes more than a rose colored glasses view of how China is accomplishing their economic growth. And thatā€™s the thingā€¦China started out VERY poor. They are now only poor. They have had explosive growth because, well, they were at the very bottom of the economic dog pile, and any growth would look explosive when you start that far down. It is incredible that they have managed to come so far so fast, but the way they did thatā€¦well, I seriously doubt that you or Le Jac or most other people (liberal or not) would be willing to pay the prices they have and are paying for that prosperity. Consider just the ecological impacts they are having, if nothing else. > > -XT Iā€™m not an economist, so this is just my amateur opinion. But I am referring to nations abandoning Laissez-faire capitalism, which seems to be losing steam. Even in the US we have various subsidies for various industries, taxes and regulations. Because pharmaceutial industries are lagging in R&D the administration is pushing for $1 billion in public R&D to get it moving again. There seems to be a good deal of overlap between basic R&D done by the public sector and R&D picked up by the private sector. East Asian nations like Taiwan, Singapore, Korea, etc seem like they are developing public/private parterships on biotechnology. The US, along with most other nations, is subsidizing alternative energy R&D and purchasing. China is developing a large number of labor and environmental laws right now. Several Latin American nations are uniting under agreements like ALBA that reject the worst aspects of capitalism. So the ā€˜Chinese modelā€™ of using the best aspects of both public and private enterprise is picking up even in the US over the concept of leaving everything to private enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/104 "2011-02-06T22:59:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So why doesnā€™t your love and caring extend to the rest of the world? Because theyā€™ll take good care of themselves. I care about my country first. Period. Dot. Stop. > [@](#): > > It is a FACT that globalism has enabled many countries like India and China to develop a middle class. It is also a FACT that the USA is the largest exporter and has the largest economy in the world. These are generally good things. It is also a FACT that our middle class is shrinking. But you see that as a good thingā€¦ as long as we sacrifice to make everyone else better off. > [@](#): > > It is also a FACT that the trend is towards MORE globalization, not less. Says who? > [@](#): > > And in spite of the picture you like to paint, people are not pro-outsourcing because they want to fuck over the poor and working class. They are pro-outsourcing because they believe it helps American companies stay competetive and that tarriffs and other forms of protectionism ultimately hurt the very poor and working class people they supposedly protect. These beliefs are not based on any facts. > [@](#): > > Our current high levels of unemployment were not caused by outsourcing. They were caused by the near collapse of a financial system overburdened with debt. Caused, in no small part, by people like you who sell insurance and issue mortgages with no thought about anything other than their commissions. Property & Casualty insurance had zilch to do with this. I donā€™t issue mortgages. Next misconception? This financial crisis came because offshoring took too many of our jobs overseas and left America with an economy that, for at least the last 10 years, has produced wage growth that has not kept up with inflation, and job growth that has not kept up with population growth. To mask this systemic problem people maintained their lifestyle by putting everything on credit. The financial crisis was a symptom, not a cause. > [@](#): > > So why do you hate the poor so much? Why do you hate American workers so much? Oh and I notice you didnā€™t have anything to say about the initiative process and how that has nothing to do with your totally irrelevant Chamber of Commerce / Republican cite. > [@](#): > > I said ā€œmoreā€ liberal. As in more liberal compared to the closed economy they had a few decades ago. China only started experiencing this miraculou growth once they opened their borders to foreign trade and loosened up their old planned communist economy a bit. Their growth exploded when they had stronger tariffs. > [@](#): > > They are also starting from no middle class. And considering the rate of growth of our debt, our currency is headed for collapse - which means theyā€™ll go right back to no middle class. Thatā€™s what you get for basing your economy on sucking jobs from another country: when your exports dry up, you dry up. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/105 "2011-02-06T23:01:03Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Letā€™s leave out the fact that I never forget my working class roots. For you, obviously there is no such thing as caring for your fellow citizens _just because_. If youā€™re doing well, you must not care about other countrymen who are not. Hmmmm, I wonder why there was no response to this? šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/106 "2011-02-06T23:22:34Z")
Because it was a really stupid thing to say and really didnā€™t warrant a response? Just a guess thereā€¦ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468/107 "2011-02-07T15:58:09Z")
So if youā€™re doing well you canā€™t give a shit about others who are not. Gotcha. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-darwinism-the-only-logical-explanation/569468.md?page=5)