# Social Mobility is terrible in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 11, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377 "2014-11-11T21:44:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/1 "2014-11-11T21:44:44Z")
I might be pointing out the obvious (and it’s probably true) but I’m a low class worker, and I’ve observed a familiar pattern which re-occurs. [ul] [li]Most of the creative industries come from Middle and Upper class people[/li] [li]Most of the better jobs go to people from a Middle or Upper class background[/li][/ul] A hefty number of politicians in the Labour party (Because it’s too obvious with the Tories) are descended from wealth or people who previously had status (Ed Milliband, Hillary Benn, Peter Mandelson are good examples) Alot of the entertainment industry has people who were descended from parents of famous actors/actresses. (Michael Redgrave springs to mind.) This isn’t to say they’re not good at their professions, just it’s something I’ve noticed more. And the examples I’ve used all know of each other and have connections which vary one way or another, which in my view makes it extremely difficult for the likes of someone like me to climb upwards, and I wonder how much it stifles innovation and talent which languishes at the bottom of the social pecking order, plus it’s generally annoying, because I feel like I can’t relate to these types of people. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/2 "2014-11-11T22:16:24Z")
Oddly enough I read an article on your exact issues just a few days ago _(I’ll try to find it but don’t hold your breath)_. It basically said that only the middle classes and above have the spare cash and by extension spare time to get involved in ‘extracurricular’ activities like acting etc The rest of us are too busy working and paying bills for that, for example most people have jobs as well when attending university, those ‘from money’ don’t have to do that and can fulfill their interests outside studying. And yes it sucks, and yes its a reversal from how things should be given that we’re are supposed to be progressing and not regressing as a society, but the political classes who mostly have never held down a real job or had any real world experience are the ones who are making the decisions on how the rest of us should live. And then they look surprised at the surge of support for UKIP. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/3 "2014-11-11T23:18:16Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > And then they look surprised at the surge of support for UKIP. And the privately educated, son of a stockbroker, former commodity-trader Nigel Farage isn’t exactly an ordinary man-on-the-street either, much as he likes to portray that image **Liam** has a point, I think. There are significant barriers to entry in many fields now for people who don’t have family money to fall back on, particularly in the creative industries, journalism and politics, where non-paying or low-paying internships continue to be an important point of entry. Obviously there’s tons of other routes to a comfortable existence, but in the world of opinion forming, hmmmmm, there’s quite an economic drawbridge being raised there. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/4 "2014-11-11T23:34:51Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > And the privately educated, son of a stockbroker, former commodity-trader Nigel Farage isn’t exactly an ordinary man-on-the-street either, much as he likes to portray that image Yep, but he does give the impression of listening to the public which the ‘Big Three’ don’t, and he comes across as fairly normal when being interviewed. I’m not English so haven’t been following things that closely, but thats what I’m picking up. On a total gut-instinct basis Cameron comes across as an uninterested Toff, Milliband as utterly out of his depth and Nick Clegg just gives me the squicks every time he’s on TV. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > **Liam** has a point, I think. There are significant barriers to entry in many fields now for people who don’t have family money to fall back on, particularly in the creative industries, journalism and politics, where non-paying or low-paying internships continue to be an important point of entry. Obviously there’s tons of other routes to a comfortable existence, but in the world of opinion forming, hmmmmm, there’s quite an economic drawbridge being raised there. I remember idly flicking through a leaflet when at a university job fair and being amazed at the statement that on average every year in Northern Ireland only ten or twelve entry-level graduate job positions become available for print journalism. The competition must be insane. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/5 "2014-11-12T00:22:25Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > Yep, but he does give the impression of listening to the public which the ‘Big Three’ don’t, and he comes across as fairly normal when being interviewed. I’m not English so haven’t been following things that closely, but thats what I’m picking up. I’m not English either, and Farage seems to me like a little toytown Brownshirt. His party shouldn’t be underestimated though, they are clearly doing the populist thing very well with some constituencies. > [@](#): > > On a total gut-instinct basis Cameron comes across as an uninterested Toff, Milliband as utterly out of his depth and Nick Clegg just gives me the squicks every time he’s on TV. Hard to disagree with any of that! 😃 Cameron - seeing as he is Prime Minister and all - just strikes me as so woefully incompetent. A PR man in government, with little to offer. To be fair, he’s done well on a couple of rights issues, getting gay marriage through Parliament with the backing of enough of his party, for example. He’s not a strong PM - someone more secure in their position would have IDS out on his ear for the growing clusterfuck that is Universal Credit. > [@](#): > > I remember idly flicking through a leaflet when at a university job fair and being amazed at the statement that on average every year in Northern Ireland only ten or twelve entry-level graduate job positions become available for print journalism. The competition must be insane. And if you want to tilt at a position with an org or agency in London, then errr good luck… ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/6 "2014-11-12T00:49:18Z")
it ain’t that great in the U.S. either. Everyone loves the “rags-to-riches” story about the poor coal miner’s kid who went from selling newspapers on the street corner to becoming CEO of Megacorp, but stories like that are stories _because_ they’re exceptional. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/7 "2014-11-12T00:58:31Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > I’m not English either, and Farage seems to me like a little toytown Brownshirt. His party shouldn’t be underestimated though, they are clearly doing the populist thing very well with some constituencies. He’s a horrid little fellow. I know some people who think he’d impress them in a pub setting, but they also think the same of Cameron. These people are natural-born bootlickers. [QUITE]Hard to disagree with any of that! 😃 Cameron - seeing as he is Prime Minister and all - just strikes me as so woefully incompetent. A PR man in government, with little to offer. To be fair, he’s done well on a couple of rights issues, getting gay marriage through Parliament with the backing of enough of his party, for example. He’s not a strong PM - someone more secure in their position would have IDS out on his ear for the growing clusterfuck that is Universal Credit. [/QUOTE] This is far too kind for Cameron. However, he _needs_ Smith: I have been meditating a blog post on Ian Duncan Smith’s brilliant and successful bid to position himself as **The Fool of the Party** , of which the Conservatives Party always has one, almost as a State of Office, when he made an incredible plea for rich people to forgo their state pensions — which is not something rich people contemplate — but I haven’t emailed the Public Information Office yet as to the eventual take-up. Smith cemented his role at their last conference, when he apparently jumped up and chortled openly listening to the chancellor’s plans for Ever-Onward Austerity. _To the bitter end, my children !_ _And beyond !_ ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/8 "2014-11-12T01:45:28Z")
Y’all have such an enormously diverse range of accents for a few small islands. It’s actually kind of impressive when you think of it. Snobs sound like snobs and working men sound like working men, to a point. But they have a dark side too, because the most immediate barrier to advancement is an accent that identifies you as lower class, I think. It’s hard for someone to immediately discriminate against you if you both speak the same English. The same way. Of course there are other factors but it’s a pretty big ‘tell’, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/9 "2014-11-12T04:04:39Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > it ain’t that great in the U.S. either. Everyone loves the “rags-to-riches” story about the poor coal miner’s kid who went from selling newspapers on the street corner to becoming CEO of Megacorp, but stories like that are stories _because_ they’re exceptional. Yes; [America and Britain are both](http://www.post-gazette.com/business/businessnews/2005/05/13/As-rich-poor-gap-widens-in-U-S-class-mobility-stalls/stories/200505130197) at the bottom of the industrialized world when it comes to social mobility. > [@](#): > > “The U.S. and Britain appear to stand out as the least mobile societies among the rich countries studied,” he finds. France and Germany are somewhat more mobile than the U.S.; Canada and the Nordic countries are much more so. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/10 "2014-11-12T04:22:17Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > And if you want to tilt at a position with an org or agency in London, then errr good luck… Among other things, because there your competition won’t even be restricted to “UK educated people” - it’s more like “the whole world”, for that particular sector. Even without financial advantages, and even without contacts, people going into the same field as their parents are highly likely to have a very big advantage over those who don’t: they’ve heard talk about it all their lives; if they’ve been paying attention, they already know how things work in that particular field, how to navigate its particular brand of minefields, etc. Being the son of a bullfighter didn’t give Miguel Bosé any kind of advantage when it came to becoming a singer and actor (rather the opposite, “the son of such a macho man, prancing on a stage!”); being the son of an actress, to a point; but being the son of two performers, of two people who were used to getting a lot of money one day and then none for months, and to working with mixed teams of technicians and performers (in his father’s case, to managing it), was an advantage he got from both sides. My sister in law used to think that her medical-school classmates who were children of medical workers were being helped under the table by their teachers, that somehow they obtained tutoring to which she didn’t have access or their grades were being inflated. The daughter of a cop and a cleaning lady, the first time she had lunch with my family and we started talking about work (with any details that would be confidential appropriately obscured), she almost fell off her chair. The “hidden tutoring” of her classmates had just been part of their “so, how was your day?” conversations. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/11 "2014-11-12T09:44:06Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Y’all have such an enormously diverse range of accents for a few small islands. It’s actually kind of impressive when you think of it. Snobs sound like snobs and working men sound like working men, to a point. > > But they have a dark side too, because the most immediate barrier to advancement is an accent that identifies you as lower class, I think. It’s hard for someone to immediately discriminate against you if you both speak the same English. The same way. > > Of course there are other factors but it’s a pretty big ‘tell’, I think. I think this is a pretty big barrier but it’s not as bad as it used to be, I think 30-40 years ago you were encouraged to drop your accent if entering a higher job, however, I still see (In my opinion) 90% of all top tier professions populated by people with a more ‘refined’ accent. Nigel Farage is just ahead of the curve, he found a gap and exploited it appropriately, and now the mainstream parties (mainly Labour, because it’s supposed to be a party of working people) Because they’re quite awful, are paying the price (BTW I do not like UKIP) However I think this kind of closed system that I’ve witnessed isn’t done consciously, factors have come about where this has made it more entrenched. > [@](#): > > **jz78817** > it ain’t that great in the U.S. either. Everyone loves the “rags-to-riches” story about the poor coal miner’s kid who went from selling newspapers on the street corner to becoming CEO of Megacorp, but stories like that are stories because they’re exceptional. But you have to admit there is a problem when that kind of story starts to apply to being something like an Operations manager at Tesco. I read this Adam Curtis article, and it kind of resonated with me in regards to what we’re discussing. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-One](http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/HAPPIDROME-Part-One) ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/12 "2014-11-12T14:09:29Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > And the privately educated, son of a stockbroker, former commodity-trader Nigel Farage isn’t exactly an ordinary man-on-the-street either, much as he likes to portray that image > > **Liam** has a point, I think. There are significant barriers to entry in many fields now for people who don’t have family money to fall back on, particularly in the creative industries, journalism and politics, where non-paying or low-paying internships continue to be an important point of entry. Obviously there’s tons of other routes to a comfortable existence, but in the world of opinion forming, hmmmmm, there’s quite an economic drawbridge being raised there. Absolutely agree but not just the creative industries, journalism and politics. These days the only way to get into working for a charity is through three months of unpaid work - generally in London with all its added expense. The inevitable result - charities run by an atypical sub-set of the population they are allegedly serving. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/13 "2014-11-12T16:09:23Z")
Parklife! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/14 "2014-11-12T16:09:38Z")
Is there really an expectation that one person will move drastically between social classes within their adult lifetime? The way I always understood it (and the way it’s worked in my family) is that each generation tries to set up the next one to be a little better off. So we have great-grandfathers who were longshoremen, butchers, coal miners and milkmen, and grandfathers who were bankers and chemical plant operators, and parents who were college-educated; one was a budgeting/finance person and the other a teacher. I have a couple of Master’s degrees. My wife’s family is very similar- except her great-grandfathers were mostly dirt-poor farmers, and upward from there to her having a JD. I do think it’s possible to go from poor/working class to middle class within a person’s lifetime however; the amount of money (and luck) involved is a lot less than from even upper middle class to upper class. I mean, I know people who have made several hundred thousand a year as lawyers, but they’re not going to be “rich”, in that they can’t really save enough of that in any reasonable amount of time in order to build up the multi-million dollar nest egg that is necessary to be able to live off of your investments. They may have big salaries, but they still have to work for a living, which is pretty much the definition of not-upper-class. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/15 "2014-11-12T20:46:04Z")
Same in France. All studies show that there’s much less social mobility than there was 25 or 50 years ago (the son of the blue collar becoming a teacher, and his grandson a doctor), which is generally summed up by “the social lift is broken”. I think it’s general in the western world. And on top of this, the income gap between the lower classes and the upper classes is becoming wider and wider. We’re all going back to a class society, 19th century style, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/16 "2014-11-12T20:54:10Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Is there really an expectation that one person will move drastically between social classes within their adult lifetime? It used to be that climbing one step was common and going all the way up not unheard of. If you were a blue collar, you hoped your child would be a well paid office worker, and the son of one of your cousin was a high ranking civil servant. That was the “American dream” or in France the “republican social lift”, rewarding the best and brightest. But even from an anecdotal point of view, it seems to me that both parents and young people have lowered their expectations. In fact, now, they more often fear that their children will end up in a worst situation. I mean I’m almost 50, and I clearly feel the difference of attitude. And again, all studies show that it’s actually the case. Your hopes of success starting from the bottom are lower than they used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/17 "2014-11-12T22:29:39Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Same in France. All studies show that there’s much less social mobility than there was 25 or 50 years ago (the son of the blue collar becoming a teacher, and his grandson a doctor), which is generally summed up by “the social lift is broken”. > > I think it’s general in the western world. And on top of this, the income gap between the lower classes and the upper classes is becoming wider and wider. > We’re all going back to a class society, 19th century style, it seems. Why is it perceived as such an inevitability, when it clearly can be prevented. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/18 "2014-11-12T22:30:19Z")
I think people are talking about being raised in a working class home and moving themselves as adults into the next class up, by dint of their abilities and hard work. That kind of thing doesn’t happen as often as it used to. But I’m not so sure that multi-generational mobility is as curtailed as single-generation mobility. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/19 "2014-11-12T23:18:55Z")
My parents didn’t go to college, nor did their parents. My dad was a blue collar laborer. Had three children. Lived on a budget. We had a garden that provided most of our fruits and vegetables for the year. My parents saved. The importance of education was stressed in our home. My brother, sister and I were the first in our families to go to college. We had student loans and scholarships. Our parents wanted more for us than they had. They encouraged us to work hard for what we have. That there were no handouts. We all have been successful at our careers. I love my job, I love my family. I am debt free. And I am probably one of the 1%. I know others that have very similar backgrounds to me, that are in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. Upward mobility is not dead. You just have to work for it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377/20 "2014-11-12T23:19:56Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Why is it perceived as such an inevitability, when it clearly can be prevented. How? Income disparity is increasing, democracy is giving way before plutocracy, and democracy is becoming more and more of a joke where your only real choice is over _who_ will crush and exploit you for the benefit of the wealthy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/social-mobility-is-terrible-in-the-uk/704377.md?page=2)