Because I like to believe there are alternatives, and there is, people just have to get off their asses and do something about it. We did it before, we can do it again.
How many years ago did this happen?
As for me, I’m in my 40’s now. But I know younger people that just graduated from college that are from similar backgrounds and well on their way to successful careers.
That’s not really the question, is it?
The sticking point seems to be how much easier or harder it is to move up in the world than in other countries or compared to a generation ago if you don’t already have a leg up.
You can still move up in the world, but the fear is that we’re making it harder than it has to be. That we shouldn’t be placing even more speedbumps in the way of talented, hard working people.
My father worked his way up from poor immigrant to successful small business owner who sent his kids off to college, lived debt free, and the whole 9 yards. It’s certainly possible. But there were plenty of other people in his immigrant community, many just as hard working and some more talented, who didn’t really move up in the world. It happens. But wouldn’t it be a good thing if hard working, talented people could start with less of a handicap?
That’s fine, however, the problem starts when the ability to enter into the Middle Class or Upper Class becomes near impossible, and the remainder stagnate because they’re trapped.
It’s just not possible for everyone to be successful. Nor is it fair. But life isn’t fair, nor is it promised to be.
My parents didn’t sit around and complain about the people that lived better than we did, that had nicer cars and homes than we did. I didn’t really even notice the kids that had nicer clothes than I did at school. We were happy, we loved each other. Even if I had not gone to college and followed my father as a shift laborer, I would have been happy and adjusted my lifestyle to match my means.
Socialistic and communistic societies have historically failed. They do not promote the best for their own societies. Innovation suffers.
I didn’t get a leg up on anyone. I studied, got good grades. Chose well in my course of studies, got my jobs without any sort of nepotism or favoritism. Have been rewarded for my contributions. All the time knowing that I had to earn it, and that it was not going to be given to me.
I don’t think people are advocating communism (and depending on how you define socialism not all have failed) or that life should be entirely fair, just that it shouldn’t and doesn’t have to be needlessly unfair.
How is the current system in the UK or the US unfair in a needless manner?
ETA: I’m seriously asking to be enlightened. I think our system is pretty darn good.
You’ve done well. Hurrah! There are increasingly fewer opportunities for young people of modest means to get a start in certain sectors of the UK economy if they don’t have family money behind them. Can’t you see how this breaks the rags-to-riches dream, and how it distorts those sectors? A three month unpaid internship, in London particularly, and to a lesser degree in other cities, with the cost of housing as it is, is a major barrier to entry. The group who can manage it then tends to be a self-perpetuating one.
Wait, what?
Who’s advocating socialism? It’s not either a totally free market free for all or crushing socialism. There is a middle ground.
And, in fact, there’s a ton of middle ground. As it happens, it’s easier to move up in the UK than the US. And harder in Brazil than the US.
The basic thesis is that different forces act to make upward social mobility easier or harder. And that these forces can change with time. The big fear is that we are making it harder now than a generation ago.
Those are the only options, are they?
I studied hard. Got good grades. Worked my tail off for years. I still got a leg up through my parents.
Not because of favoritism or nepotism but because they could afford to put food on the table and a roof over my head. Lots of people don’t have even that, and it’s a hard way to grow up if you’re hungry all the time.
Again, it’s not either/or. If somebody is successful, nobody is saying that’s not the result of talent and hard work. But I am saying that the ease of success depends to a greater or lesser extent on where you start life. And again, lots of my parents’ fellow immigrants also worked long and hard without all that much effect. Hard work is not enough and success isn’t solely determined by hard work alone.
The successful, stable economies of the world try to reduce the effect of where you began life and increase the effect of hard work and talent. Even so, the social class somebody begins life with determines where they end vastly more than 50% of the time. Again, not 100% or 0%.
But then, even the “poor” in the UK. Do they really have it that bad?
From what I can tell the UK doesnt have 3rd world poverty with families living in garbage dumps. Everyone in the UK gets free hospital care, education, food, clothing, and some assistance with housing. Doesnt mean ones flat is good but its 4 walls and a roof.
However I often feel the powers in control like to give people that little bit of comfort so they dont complain too much about their lot in life.
:rolleyes:
I can see three leg up you had just from your post, an intact nuclear family, lack of a need to earn a living for said family, emphasis on education.
One thing I’m wondering:
100, 200 years ago, not only were these societies moving en toto from farms to factories, but most people were in a very low social rung; to those of us who take literacy for granted, it is difficult to comprehend how many people were illiterate or almost so a mere century ago. Society as a whole moved from being different types of peons to being middle class (with its own subclassifications): moving from peon to multiple-factory-owner without marrying well, let’s face it, didn’t happen very often (merchant class to multiple factory owner did much more often). What I’m trying to say is, what and where do we think people should be able to move? From middle class to billionary? There isn’t room for that many billionaries. I’d like to know what is the mobility at the bottom, and that’s a kind which nowadays most often involves immigrants, and I have a hunch that actually the greatest mobility might even involve those who moved (with or without papers, or with and suddenly found themselves without) to a country whese they didn’t even speak the language. The studies mentioned exclude immigrants, and the article linked doesn’t differentiate “bottom” and “top” mobility.
I wonder when the UK was much better?
I remember 20 years ago when I was skiing in Colorado I met a young man from Ireland who said he was there basically because there were no jobs back in Ireland. In fact there were many such young Irishmen in the US who had college educations but no job prospects back home. Also some persons who were visiting Ireland at the time, said in most small Irish towns there was a noticeable lack of young people in their 20’s and 30’s. It was almost all persons over 40 or some young children. This was said to be because of the lack of jobs in the small Irish towns.
Ireland and the UK are two different countries…
If social mobility was greater previously than it is now then thats a pretty good indication that unfairness has crept into the system.
As one example it used to be that a bright child could get a place in a Grammar school, onto a free university education and into a professional career etc now that the education system has been overhauled, politicised into oblivion etc that path doesn’t exist to nearly the extent it used to, money is a much greater factor than it was a couple of decades ago.
Again, with everything, it’s all about quality.
But we’re not talking about that, we’re talking about how the top tiers of society are increasingly becoming a closed shop where anyone outside it finds it increasingly difficult to get in.
We get free food and free clothes ? Great, where do I sign up ?
Actually, when the US MSM tries to scare their poorer populace away from socialism or communism, maybe it would be best not to terrify the masses with threatening them with free food and free healthcare etc…
Anyway, housing assistance is — mainly — good, although increasingly purposed to be inadequate [ under-35-yr-olds restricted to one room’s worth of assistance ], and is partly there to maintain the housing market from collapsing [ and believe me, the housing market is more important than God to Daily Mail readers ]; but people on benefits or minimal old age pensions are more likely to spend it on utilities ( electric, gas, phone, water etc. ) than food. These things are not free.
The only ‘free clothing’ program I’m aware of is the job centre occasionally providing vouchers or buying work gear (mostly only available if you have a job offer, but need to supply your own safety boots or similar) and interview clothing for those who’ve been out of work for a while. It’s a limited amount, and its availability seems to depend on advisor’s attitude, so it’s probably not worth your while Claverhouse.
Dunno of any food program that’s more than a sandwich provided for course attendees, though I guess you could always hospitalise yourself?
At least we seem to have largely got rid of the attitude that used to be a retarder to social mobility- the one my Grandparents held when they stopped my Dad from going to Grammar school despite passing the 11+, and my Great-grandmother had when she pulled my Great Aunt out of school at 14 when her teacher thought she should go on to teacher training: “That’s not for folks like us, we know our place”.
Dad went to Uni anyway (which his parents were bizarrely proud of, despite trying to prevent him from getting a good education up to that point) , and has just retired from running a medium sized successful business, just in case you were wondering. My Great Aunt lived at home and worked at t’ mill until her mother told her to retire.
This discussion is understandably OECD-centric, meaning the perceived problem of moving from the working class to the middle class to the upper class has become harder in the wealthy nations.
I suggest most of the worlds population are still working class people struggling in poverty - but they are gaining opportunities their parents never had.
We fortunate souls in the West live with a vast middle class and the quality of life for most citizens is better than it has ever been throughout history.