# Socialist(Community) entitlements vs Private Sector **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785 "2010-01-28T17:20:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/1 "2010-01-28T17:20:03Z")
In your own opinion, make a (semi) short list of what services you feel the government in their infinite wisdom (or community in general I suppose) should cover for the greater good of the nation. We currently have: Police, Firemen, Roadways, Medicare What else should we subsidize as a whole to provide a common ground for the people? My own opinion varies from time to time. I feel healthcare “emergencies” should be covered. It should be noted that it is currently covered this way, not that I necessarily support the status quo. That can certainly be the biggest issue that comes out of the debate that may ensue but what else could/should be a community right? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/2 "2010-01-28T17:33:13Z")
To your list I would add universal healthcare/health insurance, at least up to the point of providing the amount of care required to make people productive members of society if possible. Once you go beyond “emergency services” like Police, Firemen and Army into infrastructure like roads, I would argue that some sort of nationalised electric grid, water, train and possibly communications grid would be useful (though I suspect phone lines to become obsolete fast and cell technology is cheap enough that it doesn’t need to be subsidized). We in the Netherlands sold off our electric grid and it’s been a lot of shuffling of laws to try and get it back into some kind of system that makes sense. Note that I’m not talking about the producers - we can probably do fine with them being commercial companies; but privatizing the infrastructure on which those companies run leads to all kinds of defacto monopolies that suck the life out of innovation and competition. The first thing a large producer in such a system will do is buy the grid - if they don’t already own it. ETA: the train system over here is actually pretty popular and serves a lot of commuters all over the country, reducing traffic jams and providing transportation for the many people who don’t own cars. The situation in the US is probably a lot different. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/3 "2010-01-28T17:45:38Z")
Scientific Research. Space Exploration ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/4 "2010-01-28T17:56:29Z")
You forgot primary education, environmental protection and consumer protection for things that the government currently covers. I’m not sure if I’d say that the government subsidizes these things, because they apply to everyone. The problem with supporting only healthcare emergencies is that without preventative care we have more of these, and this makes the system as a whole less efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/5 "2010-01-28T18:16:11Z")
Maybe I should restate my position to more closely define what Government SHOULD (and thus we as a people) pay for. A lot of things on this list will be things that would be nice to have but I probably wouldn’t want to pay or subsidize to pay for others. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/6 "2010-01-29T19:56:37Z")
I believe all the natural monopolies should be state controlled. That means roads, railways, electricity, gas, water, healthcare. Should also provide The basics of life, which is to say healthcare, subsidised accomodation for the poor, a basic level of income sufficient for subsistence, an effective public transport system. The state should also provide salutary competition for private sector enterprises such as insurance companies, shops, banks, that sort of thing. Of course it should also control subterranean natural resources, enough areas of woodland to protect watersheds and enough arable land to rent allotments to people. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/7 "2010-01-29T20:11:23Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe I should restate my position to more closely define what Government SHOULD (and thus we as a people) pay for. > > A lot of things on this list will be things that would be nice to have but I probably wouldn’t want to pay or subsidize to pay for others. So you believe we should pay for emergency care. But what about individual cases where it’s demonstrably cheaper to pay for preventative care than wait for an emergency to happen? I saw a show on PBS (hosted by Bill Moyers). It featured a man who needed medication to keep his liver from being inflamed, but couldn’t afford the medication. The only treatment he ever could get was emergency treatment after he got really sick and had to be hospitalized, which turned out to cost a shitload more than it would have cost to just give him the medication he needed. They released him, he got worse over time because he couldn’t afford medication, and he got hospitalized again. This process has repeated itself multiple times. Would you still insist in this man’s case that the system just let him deteriorate and ultimately cost the taxpayers more? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/8 "2010-01-29T20:35:33Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > We currently have: Police, Firemen, Roadways, Medicare > What else should we subsidize as a whole to provide a common ground for the people? Everything. We should abolish private ownership of everything but personal possesions. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/9 "2010-01-29T22:03:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Everything. We should abolish private ownership of everything but personal possesions. Such a statement is so absurd that one might think we are being wooshed. Then again, maybe you would prefer your favorite restaurants, bars, coffee shops and other privately owned small businesses be replaced by government-run cafeterias. Some people like a very institutional environment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/10 "2010-01-29T22:09:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Everything. We should abolish private ownership of everything but personal possesions. Can you define the limits of personal possessions? Can I own land? Can I own a house? How about 2 houses? How about an Inn or a factory? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/11 "2010-01-29T22:16:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Everything. We should abolish private ownership of everything but personal possesions. Axiomatically, there is no such thing as private ownership of anything that’s not a personal possession. So I guess you’re already set. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/12 "2010-01-29T23:13:26Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > In your own opinion, make a (semi) short list of what services you feel the government in their infinite wisdom (or community in general I suppose) should cover for the greater good of the nation. > > We currently have: Police, Firemen, Roadways, Medicare > > What else should we subsidize as a whole to provide a common ground for the people? > > My own opinion varies from time to time. I feel healthcare “emergencies” should be covered. It should be noted that it is currently covered this way, not that I necessarily support the status quo. That can certainly be the biggest issue that comes out of the debate that may ensue but what else could/should be a community right? Primary, secondary & tertiary education Scientific research Universal healthcare, or at least a universal catastrophic plan Police Firemen Roads High speed rails (if the private sector will not do it and if it’ll make the economy work better) Military defense Pensions for the elderly and disabled Assistance to fund FMLA for those who cannot afford it Public transportation Anything that will mold the economy to make it more sustainable or more efficient (energy investments, infrastructure investments, scientific investments, etc) Basically education, health care, military, domestic security (police, firemen, intelligence agencies), transportation, aid to the elderly, disabled and sick as well as investment in the economy and the future. We already do pay for most/all of those things though. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/13 "2010-01-29T23:17:22Z")
Just came in to say that something being owned and regulated publicly (i.e. by the state) has nothing to do with socialism, and saying that it does really poisons any debate. Traditionally, socialism is about public ownership of all the means of production - capital, nature, and labor. It goes **a lot** further than a state running the electricity grid or providing public transport. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/14 "2010-01-29T23:31:27Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Maybe I should restate my position to more closely define what Government SHOULD (and thus we as a people) pay for. > > A lot of things on this list will be things that would be nice to have but I probably wouldn’t want to pay or subsidize to pay for others. I’m perfectly willing to pay via taxes or similar rules for the things I proposed up thread. In fact I’m already doing that right now, except for the telephone/communications grids. Oh, and I forgot to mention education - probably because I couldn’t imagine a situation where it would be a good idea not to subsidize eduction at least to some degree. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/15 "2010-01-30T01:49:17Z")
most of what has been said here I’ll agree with. Just to stir some more crap: anything and everything to do with energy and electricity should be owned by the people (and at the federal level, to boot), but I don’t have any problems with leasing the bulk of this out, through mid-term leases (none of this 99 year garbage, more like 20 years) where the rents extracted are re-invested into whatever’s being leased. i don’t have a problem with the state maintaining subsurface and/or resource rights, either. again, it can be extracted by private parties via a lease system. basically, i don’t have a problem with leaving the development of this stuff up to the private sector, but i generally dislike absolute private property interests in things that would be considered economic infrastructure or natural resources. p.s. no one should be able to own beach property, either. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/16 "2010-01-30T02:24:35Z")
My god these answers are terrifying. Defense Some roads, although where private roads work I love the idea Healthcare (yes an ultra fiscal conservative would list healthcare) Police Fire National Parks Not pensions. Each person should be required to save through forcible deduction, but those assets should belong to the individual, not to the collective. A small surtax on high income earners could provide a match to those of lower incomes to facilitate a larger nest egg relative to life long income. Pretty much done. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/17 "2010-01-30T16:41:46Z")
In fact, this is what I’d like: To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/18 "2010-01-30T17:56:30Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > In fact, this is what I’d like: > > To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service. So…free market? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/19 "2010-01-30T18:34:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So…free market? I think the part about “upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange” would preclude that option. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785/20 "2010-01-30T18:42:21Z")
The purpose of government is: 1. Regulate the interactions of people in such a way that each person has a fair chance at attaining happiness based on ability, with a minimum of pissing on others in the process of trying to do so. 2. Find all the places where life could be improved, evaluating the cost-effectiveness of solutions, and putting them in place in whatever the best manner is. There are no particular restrictions in any of that beyond that these decisions be made in accordance with the law of the land (representational government, etc.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-community-entitlements-vs-private-sector/526785.md?page=2)