# "Socialist" Country Comparisons **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325 "2008-10-17T03:07:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/161 "2008-10-22T12:45:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because we have the power to control the government via voting. And because the government doesn’t have the same incentive to crush them. And because it’s not the JOB of the government to crush the workers; that IS the job of the employer, to squeeze every last ounce of profit out of them with as little given in return as possible. With the capitalist ideal, of course, being slavery. Your hyperbole is very interesting here. First of an employer would most likely have no desire to “crush” his employees. Happy employees work better than unhappy ones. But honestly in the absence of Government you are correct, some employers would crush their employees, which is why their should be a Government, a small one, that stops force. You freely enter into a contractual agreement with your employer, and can leave at any time. > [@](#): > > Oh, nonsense. More often than not, you have MORE freedom; for example, thanks to the government women can reject the sexual advances of their employers, instead of being forced to serve as their sex toys. For once I agree with you. The initiator of violence should be stopped. > [@](#): > > Nonsense again. Without government, you’d be a slave or dead, or a bandit in some tribe in the wreckage of civilization. As others have said, your ideas simply fail the test of reality; in the real world, without governments you have places that are horribly impoverished and not free at all. They are called “failed states”, and are not the kind of paradise some people like to think the world would be without government. And as for a minimum government without control over commerce; well, we had that too, and it was a hellish time for most people. I would like to know when we had that? The answer is we never have, you do not know what it would be like. But I do know what extreme socialism looks like. (North Korea, Soviet Russia, Cuba) > [@](#): > > More nonsense. You exemplify the standard libertarian attitude that property/monetary rights are all that matter, trumping even the survival of others, AND the delusion that the only source of oppression is the government. I never did say that Government is the only form of oppression. IT is the largest. Honestly governments have killed millions of people in the last one hundred years. Economic rights are important, clearly, because if a mans economic rights are taken away by the government he is no better than a slave. > [@](#): > > The “theft” is by people like you. People who benefit from society, but want to contribute nothing back in return. You want to opt out, to avoid giving anything back for all the ways the rest of society benefits you. No doubt under the theory that other people will pick up the slack for you, why you indulge yourself with your parasitic money You do not know me. I would ask that you would refrain from telling me what I want to do. I personally strongly believe in FREE interaction with other people. I do not want to opt out of society, I want to FREELY engage in society without governmental interference unless I coerce or threat to coerce. > [@](#): > > As for “slavery”, that is the inevitable result of people like you getting their way; slavery or a good imitation for most of the population. That’s what we had when people like you DID have their way. Either you are in denial about that, or you deep down think that you will be one of the slavers and not the enslaved. > > And I’d also point out that if you owe those less fortunate no consideration, then they owe you none. Assuming the less fortunate buy into your every man for himself attitude, they have no reason at all not to just kill you and take what you have. After all, a lack of concern for others is the very heart of your philosophy; why NOT kill who you want and take what you want if other people don’t matter ? You philosophy guts the entire reason for any morality to exist at all, and is fundamentally sociopathic. I do not think I owe those less fortunate than me no consideration. My moral and ethical code tells me that I should help them, and I do. The moral conundrum is that I also think a man’s labour is his own and he can sell it as he sees fit. Do you see my moral conundrum here? I would love to be able to feel really good about my self by being a socialist and voting other peoples money to someone else, but I cant. ---
**Author:** ![jojobean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@jojobean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jojobean)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/162 "2008-10-22T13:01:19Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Then help me out here. Where is, or where are, the bottleneck(s) in the system? All I can say is that I’ve visited Canada and several Western European countries, and lived in Germany where I had one brief, entirely satisfactory encounter with their system. In the other countries, I couldn’t see the problems with their system, although that is hard to discern as a visitor. > > When you say “surgeries” do you mean the clinic or doctor’s office, i.e. it takes a long time to get in to see a doctor, or do you mean that it takes a long time to before you can schedule an actual operation? If you have something urgent, like a ruptured appendix, can you not get in to have it taken care of right away? > > If you don’t mind, where did you immigrate from? Sorry, my vernacular still is mixed. When I say surgery I mean what Americans would mean when you say surgery. A doctor’s visit (like a general care doctor) would not be hard to get. Something urgent would be taken care of. But, let’s say I have a bad ankle as a result of a break. While that’s not incredibly “urgent”, it would be something that I would want to get done. However, such a surgery might take a year to get done. When I was in the US and had a surgery like this, I was scheduled within a couple of weeks. I came here from Ireland, I do not mind the question. I have lived been back and forth quite a bit. I moved to the US when I was young. So, I have experienced both on a long term scale. I would prefer, any day, the system over here. > [@](#): > > Then you don’t “believe people should take care of each other”, because without coercion they WON’T. That’s why government safety nets ( and much of the rest of the government ) were created; because people are too selfish and shortsighted for volunteerism to accomplish much. So, should the government coerce us into taking care of each other? That’s not meant to sound sarcastic, it was a real question. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/163 "2008-10-22T13:10:42Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > You freely enter into a contractual agreement with your employer, and can leave at any time. Unless doing so means you starve to death. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > For once I agree with you. The initiator of violence should be stopped. I didn’t say a word about violence. Employer’s didn’t need to use violence to force women to submit; just the threat of unemployment. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I would like to know when we had that? The Gilded Age, the robber baron era comes to mind. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > But I do know what extreme socialism looks like. (North Korea, Soviet Russia, Cuba) Straw man. They have nothing to do with the kind of socialism we are speaking of. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I never did say that Government is the only form of oppression. IT is the largest. Honestly governments have killed millions of people in the last one hundred years. And so have corporations, and so has religion. How many people have died from tobacco ? How many from anti-condom propaganda ? And how many of the people killed by governments have died because corporations or religion used them as muscle ? > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I personally strongly believe in FREE interaction with other people. I do not want to opt out of society, I want to FREELY engage in society without governmental interference unless I coerce or threat to coerce. Then you oppose freedom; government is what makes freedom on any real scale possible. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > The moral conundrum is that I also think a man’s labour is his own and he can sell it as he sees fit. Do you see my moral conundrum here? I would love to be able to feel really good about my self by being a socialist and voting other peoples money to someone else, but I cant. Your “moral conundrum” is that you value the profit motive more than human life, which isn’t a moral position at all. Frankly, I don’t believe for a moment that you and people like you would lift a finger to help anyone else without being forced. And you repeatedly have ignored my point that you OWE SOCIETY. Your precious profits are only possible because of society, because of the government you despise and all the other people you would let suffer and die. If you really have such a fetish for independence, go live out in the wilderness somewhere ( without anything dependent upon society like factory made steel tools ), instead of sucking up society’s benefits and whining how you shouldn’t have to pay for it. Unless you do that, you are benefiting without wanting to pay. > [@jojobean](#): > > So, should the government coerce us into taking care of each other? That’s not meant to sound sarcastic, it was a real question. Of course. Like, say, roads; make road payments voluntary and most of the country wouldn’t have anything better than dirt roads. Or building codes; relax building codes and that’s when you see news stories about tens of thousands dead in an earthquake. People WON’T show a proper level of concern for each other without force. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/164 "2008-10-22T13:40:11Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > So tell me, Mr Private Initiative, if you think there are too many of us to be supported by our natural resource base, how are a bunch of free actors acting independently going to tackle that problem? Or do you feel more noble letting it fester? I’d love to know the answer too. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/165 "2008-10-22T14:01:59Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Whence get you _this_ But, OK, I have libertarian socialist influences “Libertarian Socialist”??? That’s a little like being a “celibate prostitute”. A completely meaningless, self-contradictory phrase. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/166 "2008-10-22T14:33:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Unless doing so means you starve to death. > > I didn’t say a word about violence. Employer’s didn’t need to use violence to force women to submit; just the threat of unemployment. > > The Gilded Age, the robber baron era comes to mind. > > Straw man. They have nothing to do with the kind of socialism we are speaking of. > > And so have corporations, and so has religion. How many people have died from tobacco ? How many from anti-condom propaganda ? And how many of the people killed by governments have died because corporations or religion used them as muscle ? > > Then you oppose freedom; government is what makes freedom on any real scale possible. > > Your “moral conundrum” is that you value the profit motive more than human life, which isn’t a moral position at all. Frankly, I don’t believe for a moment that you and people like you would lift a finger to help anyone else without being forced. > > And you repeatedly have ignored my point that you OWE SOCIETY. Your precious profits are only possible because of society, because of the government you despise and all the other people you would let suffer and die. If you really have such a fetish for independence, go live out in the wilderness somewhere ( without anything dependent upon society like factory made steel tools ), instead of sucking up society’s benefits and whining how you shouldn’t have to pay for it. Unless you do that, you are benefiting without wanting to pay. > > Of course. Like, say, roads; make road payments voluntary and most of the country wouldn’t have anything better than dirt roads. Or building codes; relax building codes and that’s when you see news stories about tens of thousands dead in an earthquake. People WON’T show a proper level of concern for each other without force. I agree with you, that without government we would have no freedom at all. But if we had a government that only stopped coercion or the threat of coercion than we would be free. You have yet to explain how being coerced to work for others is not slavery. I only owe society in the sense that what I do builds on what those who have come before us have done and what other do now, that does not mean that the fruits of my labour that I freely sell should be taken forcefully away from me. Human beings generally acknowledge that theft and slavery are wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that taking the fruits of somone’s labour and giving it to someone else is not slavery. It seems to me that the people in the top of socialism do well, very well. The communist party officials in North Korea are doing just fine, the others not so much. You can say that that is not what we are talking about, so are you saying that those countries are not socialistic? OR are they just to socialistic for you? Do you not like them because you do not think you can be on top? With all the intelligence that you clearly have it seems to me that you want to manipulate socialism so that you are the central planner and thus can take all the money you want. (Note I do not believe what I just wrote concerning your morality, I only said it to show that that is what you do to others.) Honestly to say that you do not think that people would help each other is to ignore every charity that has every been made. That is people freely giving of their labour to others and it happens all the time. Rich people do it, Atheists do, religious people do it, poor people do it. It happens, and you know what, libertarians do it too. Your argument that people with my view do not help others is completely without factual basis or evidence. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/167 "2008-10-22T15:03:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Those are troubling claims, of course. I agree it’s troubling. Socialism depends on a high percentage of the population behaving responsibly. People in the underclass – almost by definition – behave irresponsibly. It looks to me like the ball has been pretty much squarely kicked through the goalposts you set up. But anyway, I suppose possible to take race out of the picture and observe, in a colorblind fashion, that the United States has a much bigger underclass than Canada. This is demonstrated by our higher crime rates; our higher HIV infection rates; and probably just about any reasonable proxy for the proportion of irresponsible, reckless people in the population. Thus, it would be a mistake to assume that a policy – which depends on people acting responsibly – which works well in Canada would also work well in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/168 "2008-10-22T15:39:54Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I apologize for not being more clear. > > My argument is that your statement “A hallmark of the underclass is engaging in reckless conduct” is ludicrous. It is no more a distinguishing feature of the underclass’s behaviour than any other class, and in fact, the reckless conduct of those who do not fit into your “underclass” is vastly more harmful, and more harmful to more people, than the conduct you describe. I notice tho, that when the non-underclass wants money from the government it is a “must do” thing. > > Taking from the poor and giving to the rich is even more wrong than taking from the rich and giving to the poor. The world economy had been brought to its knees by the reckless actions of bankers and hedge fund managers. They are not poor. They sure were reckless though. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/169 "2008-10-22T15:49:40Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The world economy had been brought to its knees by the reckless actions of bankers and hedge fund managers. They are not poor. They sure were reckless though. That was the point of my post, **gonzo**. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/170 "2008-10-22T15:59:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > “Libertarian Socialist”??? That’s a little like being a “celibate prostitute”. A completely meaningless, self-contradictory phrase. But yet, a real philosophy. It’s a strain of anarchism who’s most notable proponent is Noam Chomsky. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/171 "2008-10-22T16:22:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > “Libertarian Socialist”??? That’s a little like being a “celibate prostitute”. A completely meaningless, self-contradictory phrase. Tell that to Joseph Déjacque. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/172 "2008-10-22T16:29:36Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > the burden of proof is on you to prove that taking the fruits of somone’s labour and giving it to someone else is not slavery. It isn’t slavery when part of the “fruits of someone’s labour” actually derives from “capital” originally [del]stolen[/del]expropriated from the commons. Until people can make land and resources from thin air, the commons has an interest in everything produced. To this anarchist, your slavery argument only applies to taxation of pure service industries (like prostitution, but only as long as it doesn’t happen in a brothel) where hey, I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/173 "2008-10-22T16:43:04Z")
When people talk about how “unfair” it is to tax the rich at a higher rate than the not-so-rich, I like to quote the noted socialist liberal Adam Smith: > [@](#): > > The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. . . . The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. . . . **It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.** So Adam Smith was a socialist. Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/174 "2008-10-22T17:15:11Z")
> [@jojobean](#): > > I came here from Ireland, I do not mind the question. I have lived been back and forth quite a bit. I moved to the US when I was young. So, I have experienced both on a long term scale. I would prefer, any day, the system over here. Ireland does not have a socialised system like most of Europe. Our health system is not the NHS and is not free to all at point of entry. It was also very badly funded during the 70’s/80’s and has never recovered. Using Ireland as an example of a “socialised” health care system isn’t very useful as the service is in no way comparible to most of Europe’s UHC systems. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/175 "2008-10-22T17:28:46Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Ireland does not have a socialised system like most of Europe. Our health system is not the NHS and is not free to all at point of entry. > > It was also very badly funded during the 70’s/80’s and has never recovered. Using Ireland as an example of a “socialised” health care system isn’t very useful as the service is in no way comparible to most of Europe’s UHC systems. I was thinking about this last night. In a sense we have a two-tier system that works arguably worse than most of the single tier systems. Forever lost between Boston and Berlin. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/176 "2008-10-22T20:26:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > “Libertarian Socialist”??? That’s a little like being a “celibate prostitute”. A completely meaningless, self-contradictory phrase. [Libertarian socialism.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism) [And, just for fun . . .](http://www.nazi.org/) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/177 "2008-10-22T20:46:22Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I agree it’s troubling. Socialism depends on a high percentage of the population behaving responsibly. People in the underclass – almost by definition – behave irresponsibly. Whatever. I am not opposing that particular line of thought. > [@brazil84](#): > > It looks to me like the ball has been pretty much squarely kicked through the goalposts you set up. I am sure that it looks that way to you, but as I noted, the whole idea that there is an ethnic component to the situation appears to derive directly from a misapplication of statistics at two separate levels, so to me it looks like a fumble, at best. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/178 "2008-10-22T20:49:14Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > “Libertarian Socialist”??? That’s a little like being a “celibate prostitute”. A completely meaningless, self-contradictory phrase. Really? Because to this libertarian socialist it makes perfect sense. In fact that first word ‘libertarian’ as applied in most of Europe refers only to people like me. But you can use anarchist if it makes it easier for you ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/179 "2008-10-22T21:05:41Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am sure that it looks that way to you, Of course it looks that way to me. Need I remind you what you said before? > [@tomndebb](#): > > Comparing rural to rural and urban to urban demographics, I would be surprised to find a significant difference in specific criminal behaviors between ethnic groups. Your response is to speculate that the government report I cited doesn’t mean what it seems to mean. Well, the same can be said of any piece of evidence. Any evidence can be explained away with enough epicycles. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325/180 "2008-10-22T21:38:29Z")
> [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I agree with you, that without government we would have no freedom at all. But if we had a government that only stopped coercion or the threat of coercion than we would be free. No, we wouldn’t. First, because being forced to do things by the sheer necessity of them IS NOT FREE. And the closely related point that you have such a narrow definition of coercion that what you consider a government that prevents coercion would barely prevent it at all. Under your rules, anyone bright enough to be more subtle than waving a pistol in people’s faces would coerce anyone less powerful than themselves. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > You have yet to explain how being coerced to work for others is not slavery. So paying what you owe is slavery ? So acting like a decent human being is slavery ? > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I only owe society in the sense that what I do builds on what those who have come before us have done and what other do now, that does not mean that the fruits of my labour that I freely sell should be taken forcefully away from me. In other words, you are a parasite, or want to be one. Exactly what “fruits” do you think your labor would have without the support of society ? You’d be an uneducated primitive trying to survive with stone tools. And if I buy into your sociopathic viewpoint that you owe nothing to society, then why should society CARE about your rights ? You may not care about society, but you sure want society to care about you. If society collectively returns your disdain for people, why shouldn’t it just use you as a slave or a forced organ donor ? Why show anyone any consideration at all if you owe no one anything ? > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > Human beings generally acknowledge that theft and slavery are wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove that taking the fruits of somone’s labour and giving it to someone else is not slavery. Again, it’s called PAYING WHAT YOU OWE. You just want to be a thief; a thief who claims that preventing him from stealing is theft itself. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > It seems to me that the people in the top of socialism do well, very well. The communist party officials in North Korea are doing just fine, the others not so much. You can say that that is not what we are talking about, so are you saying that those countries are not socialistic? OR are they just to socialistic for you? Do you not like them because you do not think you can be on top? No, because they are too tyrannical for me. Lumping South Korea in with Canada is ridiculous. And they are rather like what your proposals would actually produce if implemented; they’d just change “The Communist Party” to “The X Corporation” as the entity that owned and controlled everything. > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > Honestly to say that you do not think that people would help each other is to ignore every charity that has every been made. That is people freely giving of their labour to others and it happens all the time. Rich people do it, Atheists do, religious people do it, poor people do it. It happens, and you know what, libertarians do it too. Your argument that people with my view do not help others is completely without factual basis or evidence. Nonsense. Charities exist, but they are too small and always have been to do the job even when they actually try. Your way of letting private institutions and citizens has been tried before - **for thousands of years**. That was how humanity **started** after all, without a government. And it didn’t work; you had people starving right and left, a vast mass of hopeless impoverished people. Your way does. Not. Work. Government redistribution and the other safety nets were invented because your way failed, and has always failed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-country-comparisons/468325.md?page=10)