# Socialist USA - Why do people support? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 10, 2005, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625 "2005-04-10T03:18:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/61 "2005-04-11T17:09:29Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > At $31,000 a year, your taxes weren’t going to foodstamps. You didn’t even cover your per capita consumption for the military. How do you figure that? I make about that and paid over 3000 in federal income taxes. So assuming he’s single and childless too, using [this cite](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873746.html) it looks to me like he’s more than paying his share of the federal defense budget, which I calculate to be 1500 dollars per person for 2004. In fact he’s paying more than his share of the income tax revenues - which appear to be 2551 per capita. And frankly, I’m personally annoyed at those who are scoffing at what he has to pay. Taxes really hurt at this bracket. All taxes combined I paid maybe 8000. Which (given I live in a high cost of living state - ma) is easily the bulk of what I have left over after paying for basic living expenses. This level of taxation means I can subsist, but it’s gets tricky to build savings, buy a house or invest in a retirement fund. So, though I’m not a libertarian, and he’d probably call me a socialist, I don’t blame the OP even a little bit for feeling robbed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/62 "2005-04-11T17:22:59Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > So, though I’m not a libertarian, and he’d probably call me a socialist, I don’t blame the OP even a little bit for feeling robbed. I pay taxes, too, but I drive on roads and depend on emergency services and utilities and all the other things **Polycarp** pointed out. I think our military is grotesquely bloated, true, and I resent paying for about 90% of it, but there’s precious little I can do about that. Unless you’re not using government services, it’s a little odd to rant about having to pay for other people’s use of government services. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/63 "2005-04-11T17:28:30Z")
Everybody uses government services. From your highways to getting your meat inspected by the USDA to FDA oversight of drug companies to public schools, libraries, etc. If you added up your benefits realized from all these govenment programs, and then deduct the taxes you paid, I think you’d be a net recipient. We all would. With the federal government running massive deficits, we’re all taking out of the system more than we put in. So don’t fault the welfare recipients, their net benefit is likely far less than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/64 "2005-04-11T17:30:16Z")
Hmmm…where’s the OP? Still asleep? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/65 "2005-04-11T19:19:34Z")
The OP was hoping to mine the SD for arguments to use on another forum. Sorta stuff happens when people get too involved in a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/66 "2005-04-11T22:32:28Z")
I was about to ask **Read** something along the lines of “If you don’t like it here, why don’t you move to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_?” when I realized I couldn’t think of any more libertarian state than the US. Are there any? All I can think of are places without any functioning government. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/67 "2005-04-11T22:43:18Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The OP stated it right on target for me. I, however, have to ask this. > > You said: > > Fair redistribution of income? What the hell is that all about? > > If I make (for example) $5 million a year, how the hell does _ANYONE_ justify that income should be “fairly redistributed”? It was already fairly distributed in the first place; I earned it. For someone else to say, “No, no, no, we have to take your hard-earned money away from you and give it to someone else who doesn’t make as much as you.” is the absolute height of arrogance on their part. > > It is theft, and shame on us as a society for implementing government regulations that allow the government to steal from us willy-nilly. And people wonder why fiscally conservative folks like me want those regulations removed. > > Aaarrggghhh… So it is fair that low income folks who work full time at minimum wage to support a family going hungry? What about people who due to physical disability can’t work at all? It’s “fair” to just dump them on the streets to die of exposure? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/68 "2005-04-11T22:45:28Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Unless you’re not using government services, it’s a little odd to rant about having to pay for other people’s use of government services. Daniel Nah. It’s not odd at all. Nothing more American than bitching about taxes. Some pay more, others consume more. If it weren’t for people bitching about the imbalances, there’d be no checks on the expenditures. And as I was saying at 30K this guy’s likely paying the vast majority of his disposable income in taxes, so it’s not a big surprise that he’s angry about it. In fact I’ll hazard the disparagement people have shown in this thread towards the OP’s anger and the amount he’s paying is an example of the same political obliviousness which causes democrats to keep being blindsided by the Republicans every election lately. Republicans do it too - what with them saying poor people don’t pay taxes. On the other hand they at least offer to reduce taxes across the board. I really don’t see why democrats don’t come back with a plan to massively raise the personal exemption/standard deductions. An economist I’m not, though. On the other hand it’s pretty damn extreme to say that all taxes are theft and for the life of me I can’t envision what the hell libertarians think the world would look like completely privatized.\* I don’t know. Do they think that far? Or are they like Marx - waiting to work that out after the revolution comes? \*For anybody who’s read it, all I can picture is something out of Neal Stephenson’s \*Snow Crash \* - a dystopia where you don’t live in a country but a franchise. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/69 "2005-04-11T22:59:08Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > How do you figure that? I make about that and paid over 3000 in federal income taxes. So assuming he’s single and childless too, using [this cite](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873746.html) it looks to me like he’s more than paying his share of the federal defense budget, which I calculate to be 1500 dollars per person for 2004. In fact he’s paying more than his share of the income tax revenues - which appear to be 2551 per capita. The OP wrote: “There is nothing anyone can say to refute this. Forget your social responsibility nonsense. I’m responsible to myself and my family. Oh, wait, I’m being coerced to pay for others…” Assuming that he is supporting just one family member, and his household size is 2, his taxes just exactly covered his families share of the defense budget. Of course, he gets lots of other services from the federal government. Such as upkeep of federal highways, national parks, federal law enforcement services, etc. He’s a net consumer of government services. The fact is he is mooching of the taxes paid by people who earn much more than he does. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/70 "2005-04-11T23:03:13Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I was about to ask **Read** something along the lines of “If you don’t like it here, why don’t you move to \_\_\_\_\_\_\_?” when I realized I couldn’t think of any more libertarian state than the US. Are there any? All I can think of are places without any functioning government. Which is a good argument that a libertarian state would be non-functional. If a libertarian economic system is so great, why hasn’t any country adopted one and kicking the ass of the US in productivity? ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/71 "2005-04-11T23:09:10Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > No, you _accrued_ it, perhaps by economically coercing those with far less bargaining power than you into working for you so that they did not starve. Huh? Are you saying that if someone made $5,000,000 in a year, it’s accrued, and NOT earned? Obviously it’s accrued… But to say that it’s not earned? How do you know he didn’t bust his behind left and right to get it? Is it his fault that the those with less “bargaining power” couldn’t get the job done? If it’s done illegally, that’s not cool. But to say that an accruement of $5,000,000 in a year isn’t earned in, really isn’t fair unless you know the details of how the accruement was made. As always, I’m willing to admit I’m wrong, I sure am no expert on economics. ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/72 "2005-04-11T23:25:46Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > The OP wrote: > > “There is nothing anyone can say to refute this. Forget your social responsibility nonsense. I’m responsible to myself and my family. Oh, wait, I’m being coerced to pay for others…” > > Assuming that he is supporting just one family member, and his household size is 2, his taxes just exactly covered his families share of the defense budget. Of course, he gets lots of other services from the federal government. Such as upkeep of federal highways, national parks, federal law enforcement services, etc. He’s a net consumer of government services. The fact is he is mooching of the taxes paid by people who earn much more than he does. Oh, thanks for pointing out that he has a family. It does change the math, but I don’t think it’s correct to regard him as the sole beneficiary of his whole family’s share of governmental services, since that assumes (among other things) that he’s the sole breadwinner which he’s probably not. Also I think your argument bites back - if he has dependents he’s contributing \*more \* to society, not less, since presumably they’re American citizens. \*Disclaimer: I think the OP’s argument is incredibly sucky. I’m completely arguing the math in this post. \* ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/73 "2005-04-11T23:37:16Z")
> [@ParentalAdvisory](#): > > Huh? Are you saying that if someone made $5,000,000 in a year, it’s accrued, and NOT earned? Obviously it’s accrued… But to say that it’s not earned? How do you know he didn’t bust his behind left and right to get it? Is it his fault that the those with less “bargaining power” couldn’t get the job done? Because if, say a nurse, who drains bedpans and cleans up shit and cares for the sick and dying all day, etc. earns - oh say $50,000 in a year - it’s just not humanly possible for any executive on the face of the planet to actually “earn” 100 times what the nurse has “earned.” Though he may receive it. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/74 "2005-04-11T23:46:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The OP stated it right on target for me. I’m glad you stepped in to defend the OP’s position. This thread has been bothering me…I believe there’s a debate to be had, but only if a bunch of stuff is tossed aside. Although, perhaps I’m wrong. So, here’s how I’d frame it (_highly_ cut-up, but you should read it for continuity…also so that all my work is not for nought): > [@Read Icculus](#): > > We were talking about gov’t programs that, in my opinion, are nothing more than theft. The particulars don’t really matter, however just consider social security, medicare, and the ridiculously inflated federal tax. I object on the grounds of principle. The gov’t has no right to forcefully take my money for these programs. The government takes our money for programs that we have not consented to. > > My question to you is why do so many people support this? > [@Post #12](#): > > The gov’t has the right idea on many programs. I don’t deny that. However, do you agree that we should be coerced into contributing to these programs? The majority of Americans accept coercion as a given role of government. I don’t. > [@Post #19](#): > > Read this…[http://www.no-treason.com/Starr/1.html](http://www.no-treason.com/Starr/1.html) Short summary: the author argues against the validity of the social contract for two reasons: 1. a citizen is never given the opportunity to _not_ agree, so the government is the only party to the contract and 2. only citizens bear the burden of the contract, as the government contributes nothing over and above what is possible due to the resources given by the citizens. > [@Post #24](#): > > I just want to know why you think it is OK for the gov’t to steal from us? > > There are people in need. Undoubtedly. That does not give anybody the right, elected official or not, to invade my wallet. It’s really that simple. > [@Post #27](#): > > I’ll give to the needy, and that is true. I object to the government taking my money and giving it to the needy as they see fit. That is theft, and it is wrong. > [@Post #29](#): > > Nobody, except me, has any right to the fruits of my labor. I earn it, it is mine. Now, I realize I’ve left out much of the character of his “arguments” and you may disagree with my framing. But at least I can make out a wee bit of debate here. I think he’s asking for a first-cause justification for taxes. Of course, since I disagree with the OP, not only can I probably not mount an adequate defense, I don’t think I’d want to try. Would someone else take up the gauntlet? Anyway, I think it comes down to the social contract issue. That was due to Locke; IIRC, the “mixing of one’s effort with nature to produce the fruits of one’s labor” forms Locke’s foundation for property (and, by extension, wealth). Now, one issue with this foundation is that it assumes that nature is found in a pristine state. (I don’t remember any argument for inheritance being a valid basis for property rights.) That’s akin to the social contract, in that the whole shebang is up and running before we get to opt-in. (I’ll put aside the Socratic objection that, before we are even _able_ to opt-in, we are raised in this particular society, and therefore have an obligation to follow its rules.) I’m guessing that he’d argue that since there was no opportunity to not agree to the governance we have, the foundational justification for the give and take (and take and take, in his view) is null and void, thus corrupting any given chain up the line (particularly to the programs to which he’s objecting). I dunno. Perhaps there isn’t any debate here. Perhaps this thread will just die a quick death. Or, maybe this post will be ignored. At any rate, I tried. And I do have to say, I am interested in exactly what **Clothalump** thinks is “right on target” in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/75 "2005-04-12T00:15:36Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > The OP wrote: > > “There is nothing anyone can say to refute this. Forget your social responsibility nonsense. I’m responsible to myself and my family. Oh, wait, I’m being coerced to pay for others…” > > Assuming that he is supporting just one family member, and his household size is 2, his taxes just exactly covered his families share of the defense budget. Of course, he gets lots of other services from the federal government. Such as upkeep of federal highways, national parks, federal law enforcement services, etc. He’s a net consumer of government services. The fact is he is mooching of the taxes paid by people who earn much more than he does. Thanks, each household’s share of the defense budget is $4000 . Source, my econ textbook published 2004. Sorry, wasn’t clear on the per capita thing. And I agree, the working class really gets shafted by the government in taxes. We are now in the top tax bracket (thanks to Bush and Co. getting rid of the top tax bracket and making us “rich”) and, as I’ve said here before, we paid significantly more as a percentage of income back when we made $50,000 between the two of us. Moreover, we now have much more “disposable” income - choices. Although our property taxes have gone up, we live in the same house we lived in when we made much less money. We drive similar cars. Shop for similar groceries. And it becomes easy to see how the rich get richer - they can afford to. ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Icculus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Read\_Icculus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Icculus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/76 "2005-04-12T02:23:00Z")
Well, I’ve learned something. It doesn’t matter how smart you are, what degrees you hold, or what respectable forum you post in. You are duped just as easily as the common fool. You people who argue the petty, the things that shouldn’t be argued, those things that you argue so eloquently, yet are so foolish, should be ashamed of yourselves. But I’m the fool for trying to imagine a libertarian “dream world.” Or, even, if you will, a world in which I can keep my money. The money that I earn. You’re saying that my tiny income doesn’t even pay my share of the defense, or my share of the bums that are on food stamps. My tiny income doesn’t pay for the mishandled funds that control the roads, the municipal water programs, the inflated pork that takes all of our dough. My tiny income that even pays you smart, rich folks. Well, that is exactly what I’m talking about. It does. Any penny that is taken from me, that I have not consented to, is wrong. Those taken pennies are theft. Again I will say… What I earn is mine. I should be able to choose what to do with it. If it is taken, it is coercion. So I’ve learned that even the “smart” are sheep. Defend the unconstitutional programs. Defend the theft of my dough. Argue the nonsensical notion that the government will handle the stolen funds better than private institutions would. Good night socialists, RI p.s. Is this debatable? ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/77 "2005-04-12T02:29:52Z")
You may now go back to sleep after missing the point of all those posts. You already stated you wouldn’t give any of your money to help people.(see my post above) ---
**Author:** ![Read\_Icculus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Read\_Icculus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Read_Icculus)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/78 "2005-04-12T02:34:59Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > You may now go back to sleep after missing the point of all those posts. > > You already stated you wouldn’t give any of your money to help people.(see my post above) I stated that I would give money to help people, but I haven’t the choice. It is stolen. Perhaps I should go back to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/79 "2005-04-12T02:45:41Z")
I see you didn’t read my post above where I quoted you. What you now need to do is make a long, detailed post whereby you will make points that show you didn’t get what people were trying to explain at all. Then we can ask you to explain again since us socialists aren’t that bright. You didn’t have a weird dream, did you? Mine are always weird. your comrade ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625/80 "2005-04-12T03:26:30Z")
> [@Read Icculus](#): > > Is this debatable? The topic is clearly debatable and has actually been _debated_ on this Forum in the past. In this case, you have chosen to not actually participate in a debate, or even in a discussion. Instead, you post assertions couched in mildly (but increasingly) insulting language without bothering to respond to specific issues raised by other posters. If you would actually like a debate, by all means participate in one. Failing that, I will have to conclude that this is merely a rant without any stronger substance than a strong personal feeling and I will be compelled to move it to the **BBQ Pit**. [/Moderator Mode] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socialist-usa-why-do-people-support/298625.md?page=5)