# Socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Anything else and you're an idiot. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2020, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973 "2020-06-03T11:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/41 "2020-06-04T12:05:49Z")
SDMB prides itself on Ignorance Fighting, but it’s very seldom that opinions change on political topics in Great Debates. @ **R3d Anonymous** — Have you learned anything in this thread? I notice you’ve not responded to any of my posts. Are my points unclear? Do you have answers? Surely you’re not so wedded to the opinions you _want_ to hold that you simply reject facts and arguments that are too uncomfortable. Or do you still think all your detractors are “idiots”? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/42 "2020-06-04T13:01:32Z")
> [@R3d\_Anonymous](#): > > It’s actually hilarious. Many of your points are still factually wrong. It might be nice if you tried to debate some of the arguments made, since you did post this is Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/43 "2020-06-04T13:25:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > This brilliant line cannot be repeated too often. I first saw this a couple of years ago, when [Jeet Heer tweeted it](https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/983563156776562689) (with attribution). The more I’ve thought about it, and the more I’ve seen over the intervening two years, the more I’m convinced that it’s an accurate summation of conservative values. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/44 "2020-06-04T14:12:17Z")
> [@R3d\_Anonymous](#): > > Also, I was responding to someone that said that only the “elites” would support a libertarian-leaning (note: not 100% libertarian) platform. But that doesn’t make sense. Much of the GOP and working class in the trades votes for GOP in favor of their economic policy. And many everyday people are in favor of liberating on social issues. > > Why would so many “everyday” people support the GOP, but not an economically GOP and socially Democrat with pro-2A and less hawkish platform? It leaves the “worst” of both worlds out of the parties for many people. Why is that adjustment suddenly only for the “elites”? > > **Exapno Mapcase** The reason the working class vote GOP is because they oppose libertarianism. They want a society with social heirarchies, not one with racial egalitarianism. Its only white working class people who vote GOP, and there is a reason for it. Also its not really so much about class as about education. Poor college educated whites are to the left of financially stable high school educated whites. Its because education is a proxy for authoritarianism and bigotry, both of which libertarians oppose. I really don’t feel you understand the GOP base. They want more welfare for themselves, a more authoritarian government and more prejudice against out-groups. All things libertarians oppose. Generally the base of the GOP is socially conservative and fiscally liberal. The base of the democrats is socially and fiscally liberal. People who are both socially liberal and fiscally conservative are fairly rare from what I’ve seen of studies of political makeup. The base of the GOP love medicare, medicaid, social security, etc. As a society we aren’t anywhere near wealthy enough for the masses to want true libertarianism. Most people can’t function without government assistance and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/45 "2020-06-04T14:13:33Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Then why does 2 months of unemployment put so many people on the verge of homelessness? The stock market has done great; people on the lower end of the economic scale, not so much. This one is easy, people live beyond their means. They don’t save, we spend spend spend. Blame the media. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/46 "2020-06-04T14:19:11Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > This one is easy, people live beyond their means. Right. There’s no reason they should be frittering their money away on healthcare, food, and a roof over their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/47 "2020-06-04T14:35:06Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Easy explanation. Fiscal conservatism isn’t a sincerely held position. It’s a fig leaf for other socially hateful things. Those are the things that righties truly care about. > You’ve displayed an ignorance of economics in general, as well as some hostility/indifference to the poor. You cannot compensate for this by transferring credits for being more progressive on different issues. Fiscal conservatism most certainly is a sincere belief, because I hold it. You spouting off this kind of nonsense is why you fail to be understood, and more importantly fail to understand others. This board man, bash bash bash, it’s no fucking wonder why the 2 political “sides” fucking hate each other. It’s people like you , among others, who perpetuate this shit and I am sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/48 "2020-06-04T14:36:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Right. There’s no reason they should be frittering their money away on healthcare, food, and a roof over their heads. I think the excluded middle is over there , somewhere --------\> ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/49 "2020-06-04T16:09:15Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think the excluded middle is over there , somewhere --------\> Nope, this is not an excluded middle situation. If you think that the majority of low income Americans are living beyond their means then you’re not paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/50 "2020-06-04T16:12:47Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Nope, this is not an excluded middle situation. If you think that the majority of low income Americans are living beyond their means then you’re not paying attention. I think _most_ people DO live beyond their means, and I AM paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/51 "2020-06-04T16:17:30Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think _most_ people DO live beyond their means, and I AM paying attention. If beyond their means includes adequate health care, living conditions, and work life balance, then the system is failing. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/52 "2020-06-04T16:21:25Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I think _most_ people DO live beyond their means, and I AM paying attention. I think most corporations, banks, and financial institutions live beyond their means because they know that the consequences of doing so are minimal. Unfortunately, if ordinary working people live beyond their means, the consequences are frequently drastic. Is believing in regulated capitalism left, right, or in the middle? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/53 "2020-06-04T16:30:25Z")
The Invisible Hand spends most of its working day giving the proletariat the finger. It spends the rest with its thumb on the scales in favour of the scions of privilege. That’s all the Hand does. Libertarianism is just “Fuck you, I got mine” in a fancy coat. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/54 "2020-06-04T16:40:30Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > because I . Yeah I got that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/55 "2020-06-04T17:51:25Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If beyond their means includes adequate health care, living conditions, and work life balance, then the system is failing. Dude, they have refrigerators. If that’s not living the luxurious lifestyle, I don’t know what is. But seriously, if it were only poor people living beyond their means, only poor people making poor economic decision, then people like **Kearsen1** might have a point. Everyone lives beyond their means, and everyone makes poor economic decisions. If we didn’t then capitalism would have failed the first time someone realized that they really don’t need an inflatable BBQ grill. Why should we hold these least fortunate among us to a higher standard than anyone else? Why are only the poor expected to live lives of austerity, and to solve the NP problem of maximum economic efficiency? > [@MrDibble](#): > > The Invisible Hand spends most of its working day giving the proletariat the finger. It spends the rest with its thumb on the scales in favour of the scions of privilege. That’s all the Hand does. > > Libertarianism is just “Fuck you, I got mine” in a fancy coat. I like that: Libertarianism is when you can see that the invisible hand is flicking you off. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/56 "2020-06-04T19:58:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Dude, they have refrigerators. If that’s not living the luxurious lifestyle, I don’t know what is. Yeah the conservative attitude that poor people having cellphones means they are actually rich is like saying that those living five to a rundown apartment are better off than Louis XIV because they have indoor plumbing. One of the more bullshit right wing arguments. I grew up before VCRs, DVRs, computers and cellphones, and I never missed them and was not underprivileged in not having them. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/57 "2020-06-05T02:00:35Z")
The biggest thing that gets glossed over in the glibertarian rhetoric is the issue of private ownership. Because “tragedy of the commons” and all that. To have private ownership, you have to have strong government support for it, which kind of defeats Grover’s “_drown it in the bathtub_” glurge. Perhaps free market economics would work well if we massively reined in the finance industry and restricted businesses to you-can-own-this-one-right-here-and-if-you-need-more-form-a-non-profit-co-op-with-others. But as long as “freedom” is allowed to be exclusive of honor, the free market, and really the system in general is going to remain broken. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/58 "2020-06-05T02:33:18Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > The biggest thing that gets glossed over in the glibertarian rhetoric is the issue of private ownership. Because “tragedy of the commons” and all that. Yeah. And it doesn’t even have to be a commons. As soon as neighbor-1 decides to do something on his private property that neighbor-2 does not like there will be friction and they will run to the local government, such as it is, and a law will get passed and maybe even a government entity to oversee this issue (e.g. maybe neighbor-1 was diverting almost all the water for his use because he was further upstream from neighbor-2). Rinse and repeat with millions of people for a few decades and you get what we have today. Libertarians are the most delusional of all…by a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/59 "2020-06-05T11:37:27Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > People who say “socialist and communist societies end up with comparatively poor lifestyles” are usually only referring to the USSR, North Korea, and failed states like Venezuela. China has one of the largest and fastest growing economies on the planet and countries like Denmark, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Ireland, New Zealand, and Belgium don’t seem to be suffering for their socialist policies. > > I would also disagree that capitalism “benefits everyone”. There is evidence to support that the benefits of capitalism in America are disproportionately going to a smaller and smaller percent of the population. Evidence such as stagnant working and middle class wages, rising health and education costs, and lack of job opportunities. We are not actually socialist. Socialist countries are places like North Korea, Cuba and Venezuela. Places like the Nordics are capitalist, and by many measures more capitalist than the US. Where we are different from the US and to a lesser degree the UK model of capitalism is that our capitalism is more symbiotic with the middle classes, which receive a far larger share of the benefits of a capitalist economy than they do in the US. As you point out, the benefits in the US are flowing towards the upper sections of the income pyramid. US capitalism appears to me to increasingly shade towards being parasitic on the middle classes. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973/60 "2020-06-05T13:38:30Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > We are not actually socialist. Socialist countries are places like North Korea, Cuba and Venezuela. Places like the Nordics are capitalist, and by many measures more capitalist than the US. There’s really no point in just relabeling everything to suit yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socially-liberal-and-fiscally-conservative-anything-else-and-youre-an-idiot/854973.md?page=4)