# Society in John Lennon's "Imagine": Utopia or Dystopia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370 "2010-06-08T00:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/21 "2010-06-08T03:39:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That sounds horribly, unutterably dreary . . . and still a heck of a lot better than what we’ve got now. Seriously? You really think so? People are _interesting_. The different things we’ve all come up with are _amazing_. I admit I’m biased because I a. majored in cultural anthropology and think humans are endlessly fascinating and b. used to live in a former communist country and have utter disdain for the people who think conformity \> individualism, but I’ll take our crazy, interesting, unpredictable (and yes, violent) world every time over a bland, gray, passionless, peaceful world. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/22 "2010-06-08T03:42:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The song doesn’t say that at all. Well, I think you and I have gotten different ideas out of the song. All I know is that every time I hear I want to punch the music playing device. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/23 "2010-06-08T03:44:39Z")
> [@Zephyurs](#): > > Is that such a bad thing? I would love to live in a world where everyone just minded their own business, and we could just tend to each of our individual gardens. So go tend to your garden. I will be happily living in the civilization with medicine and technology and refrigeration. In five years, when you die a terrible death of starvation weakening your parasite-ridden body and you work yourself to the bone, I’ll buy your garden aat probate auction. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/24 "2010-06-08T03:50:51Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I find the ideas presented in the song loathsome, and would not want to live in such a world. No countries, no religion, no possessions…basically, everyone is the same, eliminating all need for conflict. > > I’m not a fan of conflict, but a world with no diversity would be amazingly boring. I kind of picture a gray landscape, where everyone is wearing those Chairman Mao jumpsuit things. > > Basically, I hate this song. A lot. I don’t hate it, but it leaves me cold. I also feel so shallow every time I listen to it, not because I want a world with religion, but because I kind of like…well, material possessions. And I’m not big on brotherhood. On day two of Lennon’s Imagine world, I’d be that person going, “Did you see Brother Lennon’s beige tunic? What was he _thinking_?” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/25 "2010-06-08T03:51:51Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Well, I think you and I have gotten different ideas out of the song. All I know is that every time I hear I want to punch the music playing device. Where does the song say a single word about no diversity or differences? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/26 "2010-06-08T03:52:51Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So go tend to your garden. I will be happily living in the civilization with medicine and technology and refrigeration. Where does the song say anything about no medicine or technology or refrigeration? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/27 "2010-06-08T04:17:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Further emphasizes that in this society life would be meaningless. If you don’t have **something you’re willing to be a martyr for** than you lose a certain drive in life, a certain will. Friend, IMO, religion (I forget, is it Jesus or Allah you’re willing to martyr yourself for?) doesn’t sound like it’s been a good influence on your young mind. Your life can have meaning, even though there’s no God. Dedication to something outside yourself doesn’t require martyrdom. Before you do anything rash, talk to an atheist if you need help understanding this. And turn off that hippie crap. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/28 "2010-06-08T05:19:59Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > I find the ideas presented in the song loathsome, and would not want to live in such a world. No countries, no religion, no possessions…basically, everyone is the same, eliminating all need for conflict. > > I’m not a fan of conflict, but a world with no diversity would be amazingly boring. I kind of picture a gray landscape, where everyone is wearing those Chairman Mao jumpsuit things. > > Basically, I hate this song. A lot. Actually, Lennon spoke out AGAINST Mao – listen to _Revolution_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/29 "2010-06-08T05:28:46Z")
Lennon also spoke very cynically about the possibility of a utopia actually happening. He did not think humans would change. ---
**Author:** ![Zephyurs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/dfb087/32.png) [@Zephyurs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zephyurs)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/30 "2010-06-08T06:01:29Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > So go tend to your garden. I will be happily living in the civilization with medicine and technology and refrigeration. In five years, when you die a terrible death of starvation weakening your parasite-ridden body and you work yourself to the bone, I’ll buy your garden aat probate auction. 😃 That was in reference to “there would be no reason to care about anyone, at least not outside your own tiny tribe.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/31 "2010-06-08T07:02:40Z")
I think that Lennon intended that it be subject to interpretation first as repulsive, then as hopeful and lastly as nihilism. He was no slouch on lyric writing and not above jokes in his work. So I would agree that dystopia is in there somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/32 "2010-06-08T13:56:47Z")
Since the OP apparently believes in an afterlife, I would ask him what he thinks heaven would be like? Are there countries? Are there stores to stock up on the latest consumer electronics and fine clothes? Do people worship different gods in heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/33 "2010-06-08T14:05:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > This means that there being no afterlife and that people will die in one life on this Earth. It \*\*will mean for many people that life is pointless and encourage them to engage in \*\*hedonism or **suicide**. > [@](#): > > Further emphasizes that in this society life would be meaningless. If \*\*you don’t have something you’re willing to be a martyr for \*\*than you lose a certain drive in life, a certain will. I gotta know, dude, are we supposed to be killing ourselves or not? Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/34 "2010-06-08T14:53:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > This means that there being no afterlife and that people will die in one life on this Earth. It will mean for many people that life is pointless and encourage them to engage in hedonism or suicide. You are welcome to wait for some fictional heaven if you prefer, but some of us are of the opinion that enjoying life IS the point of it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/35 "2010-06-08T14:58:07Z")
I think \*\*Diogenes \*\*has it right here, although I would go more with a vision of what Buddhism teaches. That would jibe better with the first verse. For me, though, it’s like saying: Imagine humans weren’t human. Interesting thought, but completely out of touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/36 "2010-06-08T15:02:17Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > [Lennon’s hypothetical society] would also be highly vulnerable to extraterrestrial invasion since presumably in this society military would be abolished. You know, while it’s not a board _rule_ that all the truly stupid hypothetical statements are to issue from my keyboard, it’s certainly board _custom_. I’ll thank you to remember that. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/37 "2010-06-08T16:10:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is it with some religionists? Do you really believe that I, an atheist, am an untrustworthy s.o.b. that would kill you in a back alley for your pocket change, then go kill myself because I have nothing to live for? Yeah! I mean for one thing, I’ve got your _change_… ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/38 "2010-06-08T16:15:39Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > I think that Lennon intended that it be subject to interpretation first as repulsive, then as hopeful and lastly as nihilism. He was no slouch on lyric writing and not above jokes in his work. So I would agree that dystopia is in there somewhere. Lennon was a very bright man and this is almost certainly a more complex and multi-layered work than it first appears. Humans are not suited for utopia; not even the Nowhere Man is suited for such a Nowhere Land. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/39 "2010-06-08T17:07:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think \*\*Diogenes \*\*has it right here, although I would go more with a vision of what Buddhism teaches. That would jibe better with the first verse. To me, the “society” in “Imagine” sounds like a utopia rather than a distopia, but it’s a very negative one, defined by what has been eliminated, by what there is **not** rather than by what there is. As such, I agree that it sounds more Buddhist than Christian to me. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Aside from “Imagine there’s no heaven,” the whole things jibes precisely with the teachings of Jesus. He said to abandon possessions, wealth, live in poverty, live life in peace, be passive in the face if hostility, that everyone was his “family.” All that naive, utopian shit. Those who trash Lennon’s idealism would also have to trash the vision of Jesus. But I don’t think you **can** “imagine there’s no heaven” and still have Jesus’s message. (“Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”). When I think of the times Jesus spoke of giving up possessions, for example, they explicitly involved the context or reason or motivation of heaven. [QUOTE=Matthew 19:21] Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Matthew 6:19-21] "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Matthew 19:29] And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Luke 6:20] Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. [/QUOTE] For Jesus, things like abandoning possessions and being passive in the face of hostility were means to an end, not an end in themselves. To Lennon, if “no possessions,” “nothing to kill or die for,” etc. are means to an end, what is Lennon’s end, his Ultimate Good? From the song, it sounds like “peace and brotherhood.” I think peace and brotherhood are very good things, but I don’t think they’re the only good things, nor do I think “no possessions” and “no heaven” are the means to achieve them. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/40 "2010-06-08T17:09:43Z")
Cut the dude some slack, it’s not easy to make a coherent philosophy rhyme. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370.md?page=3)