# Society in John Lennon's "Imagine": Utopia or Dystopia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370 "2010-06-08T00:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/41 "2010-06-08T17:29:16Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > To me, the “society” in “Imagine” sounds like a utopia rather than a distopia, but it’s a very negative one, defined by what has been eliminated, by what there is **not** rather than by what there is. As such, I agree that it sounds more Buddhist than Christian to me. > > But I don’t think you **can** “imagine there’s no heaven” and still have Jesus’s message. (“Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?”). When I think of the times Jesus spoke of giving up possessions, for example, they explicitly involved the context or reason or motivation of heaven.For Jesus, things like abandoning possessions and being passive in the face of hostility were means to an end, not an end in themselves. > > To Lennon, if “no possessions,” “nothing to kill or die for,” etc. are means to an end, what is Lennon’s end, his Ultimate Good? From the song, it sounds like “peace and brotherhood.” I think peace and brotherhood are very good things, but I don’t think they’re the only good things, nor do I think “no possessions” and “no heaven” are the means to achieve them. No possessions, “nothing to kill or die for,” etc. are envisioned as as a _result_, not a means to an end, as is the abandonment of religious superstition. It’s a dream about a basic change in human nature, and the things imagined not to exist in the song are envisioned as things which would drop away naturally if human nature were different. he isn’t saying “become a commie atheist and we’ll all have peace and brotherhood,” he’s saying that war, material greed, nationalism, religon etc. would all disappear on their own if humans weren’t assholes. In point of fact, though, Lennon did not actually believe these things could happen. The song is intended as a fantasy, not a political treatise. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/42 "2010-06-08T17:37:16Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Cut the dude some slack, it’s not easy to make a coherent philosophy rhyme. And fit into the Top 40 format. Aristotle wasn’t under those constraints! ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/43 "2010-06-08T17:37:36Z")
I’d really like to see **Curtis** ’ response to the point that the song fits exactly with what Jesus supposedly taught. Of course, I have a feeling **Curtis** will abandon this thread like his others. I can’t believe that people are presumptuous enough to think that a world without their religion would drive people to mass depression and suicide. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/44 "2010-06-08T17:56:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not abolished, just not necessary. This is a hilariously silly objection, though. Any extraterrestrial entity capable of interstellar travel is not going to be anyone we are a technological match for in any case. We’d be doing the equivalent of throwing spears at jets. You don’t need a military to upload the computer virus. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/45 "2010-06-08T20:23:57Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > You don’t need a military to upload the computer virus. Didn’t anyone see that Simpsons monkey’s paw episode? All we’d need to do is pioneer a board on a stick and we’d be golden. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/46 "2010-06-08T20:26:35Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > You don’t need a military to upload the computer virus. I don’t think Goldblum could possibly have gotten the fighter ship up there without Will Smith. Anyway, for an alien invasion you need the Justice League. Well…Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and the Flash, anyway. I’ve never been convinced that Green Arrow had anything to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/47 "2010-06-09T00:53:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Aside from “Imagine there’s no heaven,” the whole things jibes precisely with the teachings of Jesus. He said to abandon possessions, wealth, live in poverty, live life in peace, be passive in the face if hostility, that everyone was his “family.” All that naive, utopian shit. Those who trash Lennon’s idealism would also have to trash the vision of Jesus. > > The OP’s thesis that people who don’t believe in an afterlife will naturally turn to hedonism (like there’s anything wrong with hedonism) and/or despair is total nonsense as demonstrated by the fact that millions of atheists right now do not turn to either. > > Anyway, the song is not a call to action, but a call to dream. Now if you actually looked at the writings of Paul you’ll see most of it was not the case except for certain heretical sects such as the Gnostics. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not abolished, just not necessary. This is a hilariously silly objection, though. Any extraterrestrial entity capable of interstellar travel is not going to be anyone we are a technological match for in any case. We’d be doing the equivalent of throwing spears at jets. No but we could prepare for it by keeping up military technological progress, encouraging interstellar exploration, and preparing for such a possibility. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Incidentally, the song is not about abolishing any of those things, it’s a daydream about a world where humans have simply outgrown them. > > It may still be naive, but like I said, it’s the exact same naive vision that Jesus preached. The only difference is that instead of no religion, Jesus dreamed of a world with only one religion – Judaism. Messianic Judaism actually. > [@njtt](#): > > Only to someone who feels they are more comfortable living a hierarchical, authoritarian society. No just a more civic-minded society. > [@](#): > > At this point, I think you are taking the line too literally. In context, “living for today” means living for what happens and will happen to oneself and other people on Earth, while they are alive, rather than living for what might happen in some hypothetical afterlife. > Bull. You can have plenty of purpose in life without being willing to die for your country (which is, as the context again makes clear, what he is really talking about), or, indeed, anything else. He says the word **nothing** -not even other people or concepts such as “freedom”. > [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > Friend, IMO, religion (I forget, is it Jesus or Allah you’re willing to martyr yourself for?) doesn’t sound like it’s been a good influence on your young mind. > > Your life can have meaning, even though there’s no God. Dedication to something outside yourself doesn’t require martyrdom. Before you do anything rash, talk to an atheist if you need help understanding this. > > And turn off that hippie crap. 😃 I mean in general to be willing to die for something-be it humanity or democracy or freedom. > [@DianaG](#): > > You are welcome to wait for some fictional heaven if you prefer, but some of us are of the opinion that enjoying life IS the point of it. No the point of life is to improve the human condition. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/48 "2010-06-09T02:22:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > No the point of life is to improve the human condition. That is exactly what John Lennon was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/49 "2010-06-09T02:41:33Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > In conclusion life in such a society will be pretty much pointless without any greater purpose for humans to live for. Are you saying atheists have no reason to live? > [@](#): > > Most likely humans will largely abandon themselves to hedonism or kill themselves. Explain Buddhism. > [@](#): > > It would also be highly vulnerable to extraterrestrial invasion since presumably in this society military would be abolished. Pop quiz, you can travel through space with apparent ease. Do you get in a bloody fight with the nearly bald juvenile looking apes on the third planet for their sparse resources? Or do you set back from a safe distance and use your technology to redirect an asteroid to their planet? Or do you just say fuck risking who knows what nasty biological contagions they may have, and use the plentiful energy and resources in space? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/50 "2010-06-09T02:55:04Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Now if you actually looked at the writings of Paul you’ll see most of it was not the case except for certain heretical sects such as the Gnostics. If you look at the quotations attributed to Jesus, you’ll see it’s ALL true, and nothing in the Pauline corpus contradicts it (trust me, kid, I know more about this stuff than you do), plus the Acts of the Apostles explicitly describes the first Chritian communities as being literally communistic, with no private ownership of property and everything owned in common (Acts 4:32-35). A couple of people are even killed for withholding money from the commune (Acts 5:1-11) > [@](#): > > No but we could prepare for it by keeping up military technological progress, encouraging interstellar exploration, and preparing for such a possibility. None of which would do us a damn bit of good. > [@](#): > > Messianic Judaism actually. No, that’s Christianity. Jesus just believed in plain old Judaism with a human (non-divine) Messiah. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/51 "2010-06-09T03:33:19Z")
it is simply a song about conflict and imagining a world without the reasons for it. Of course I think John was taking the piss and it was a wonderful ironic English joke. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/52 "2010-06-09T03:42:55Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I mean in general to be willing to die for something-be it humanity or democracy or freedom. No problem, so long as you interpret Islamic uses of the word ‘martyrdom’ just as benignly. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/53 "2010-06-09T07:00:36Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > No problem, so long as you interpret Islamic uses of the word ‘martyrdom’ just as benignly. Same difference. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/54 "2010-06-10T01:16:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If you look at the quotations attributed to Jesus, you’ll see it’s ALL true, and nothing in the Pauline corpus contradicts it (trust me, kid, I know more about this stuff than you do), plus the Acts of the Apostles explicitly describes the first Chritian communities as being literally communistic, with no private ownership of property and everything owned in common (Acts 4:32-35). A couple of people are even killed for withholding money from the commune (Acts 5:1-11) Most people in the New Testament are described as having normal jobs (including slaves) and live in cities such as Rome, Antioch, Corinith, and so on. > [@](#): > > None of which would do us a damn bit of good. If such a threat will come say a thousand years hence preparing somewhat may bear fruits later on. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/55 "2010-06-10T01:25:01Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Most people in the New Testament are described as having normal jobs (including slaves) and live in cities such as Rome, Antioch, Corinith, and so on. So what? I fail to see how the behavior of anyone other than Jesus and the Apostles is supposed to be meant as an example for Christians to follow. Jesus was clearly very suspicious of profit and materialism, and none of the Apostles (by which I mean the Eleven & Paul) had much good to say about the rich. Of all the willfully obtuse perversions of Christian doctrine, the Prosperity Gospel of whited sepulchurs such as TD Jakes & Joel Osteen rank among the worse. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/56 "2010-06-10T01:27:51Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > Most people in the New Testament are described as having normal jobs (including slaves) and live in cities such as Rome, Antioch, Corinith, and so on. Jesus tells them they have to leave their professions (and I would not call slavery a “normal job”) their money and even their families behind if they want to follow him. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/57 "2010-06-10T01:36:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > So what? I fail to see how the behavior of anyone other than Jesus and the Apostles is supposed to be meant as an example for Christians to follow. Jesus was clearly very suspicious of profit and materialism, and none of the Apostles (by which I mean the Eleven & Paul) had much good to say about the rich. Of all the willfully obtuse perversions of Christian doctrine, the Prosperity Gospel of whited sepulchurs such as TD Jakes & Joel Osteen rank among the worse. I do not advocate greed but I do think people should work for the economy to operate. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Jesus tells them they have to leave their professions (and I would not call slavery a “normal job”) their money and even their families behind if they want to follow him. 2 Thessalonicans 3:6-15 > [@](#): > > Warning Against Idleness > 6In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. 10For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “If a man will not work, he shall not eat.” > > 11We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. 12Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. 13And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. > > 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/58 "2010-06-10T01:37:49Z")
I too am thoroughly weary of it - that slow dreary tune. But it’s an anarchist anthem. It always amazes me that no one else sees it. It got to number one with everyone thinking it was just a nice tune with dreamy lyrics but it’s actually a hardcore anarchist manifesto. I bought the single - the B-side was [Working Class Hero](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU) just to emphasise the point. It’s an anarchist anthem, no doubt about it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/59 "2010-06-10T01:50:52Z")
> [@Curtis LeMay](#): > > I do not advocate greed but I do think people should work for the economy to operate. This passage is a complete non-sequitur. For one thing, Jesus didn’t say it, and for another thing, it doesn’t contradict Jesus’ communistic worldview anyway. Communism doesn’t preclude work. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/60 "2010-06-10T13:27:18Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > I too am thoroughly weary of it - that slow dreary tune. > > But it’s an anarchist anthem. It always amazes me that no one else sees it. It got to number one with everyone thinking it was just a nice tune with dreamy lyrics but it’s actually a hardcore anarchist manifesto. > > I bought the single - the B-side was [Working Class Hero](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU) just to emphasise the point. > > It’s an anarchist anthem, no doubt about it. That’s interesting considering _Working Class Hero_ was released on a different album (John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band; 1970) than _Imagine_; and, shortly after Imagine (the album) was released in 1971, \*Imagine \*(the song) was released as a single with _It’s So Hard_ on the B-side. \*Imagine \*was also released as a single combined with _Happy Christmas (War is Over)_ and _Give Peace a Chance_. Are those songs anarchistic as well? I’d be interested in a cite that Lennon intended to two songs to be combined on a single as an anarchist manifesto. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370.md?page=4)