# Society in John Lennon's "Imagine": Utopia or Dystopia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370 "2010-06-08T00:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/61 "2010-06-10T13:42:37Z")
I would argue that if you can’t understand how the song can present a Utopian society, you just need to expand your imagination. “Imagine all the people/ Living for today” and “I hope someday you’ll join us/ And the world will be as one” are the lines that sorta sticks out for me- if reading that and your thoughts jump to communism and dystopian societies- then you’re over-thinking it already. “today” can mean quite a bit of things and not just a literal hedonistic “this very moment”, I imagine it as pretty much being a line about working for the present conditions of humanity- since we are all one, we’ve got to figure out ways to help out all of us. This includes focusing on science, technology, and education in order raise ourselves as a whole and to better ourselves as a human race basically. I view it as a peaceful song about a Utopian society for those who can imagine it, while basically screwing over those who are too negative/less optimistic to see how it could work- sort of having a laugh at the people who get bogged down in the rules. It may seem a bit childish, (I can easily picture an adult telling a child, who said these things “Yeah, but your society couldn’t exist! It’s stupid and would have all these problems!”, well yeah- but that’s half the joke in my mind. It’s so simple to tear things down and to find flaws in ideas and viewpoints, but why not take the time to be an optimist and just imagine what life would be like if the world WAS actually a happy and harmonious place? I’d say he’s more encouraging us to dare to dream bigger and better for ourselves rather than simply (and rather cynically) encourage an anarchist society. If still keep imagining an anarchist society- well then, imagine one that doesn’t have any problems- if you keep finding problems in your mind- then keep trying to work on your imagination until you can make it work- it’s like a lil’ mental creative problem- a zen koan or such basically to relax the mind and calm down. At least it is such for me- and I like the song- and the \*a perfect circle \*cover of it on their eMOTIVE album, which was a bit more politically charged of an album, and had some wierd and interesting covers, but that one was def. one of the better ones on it. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/62 "2010-06-11T22:02:46Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > That’s interesting considering _Working Class Hero_ was released on a different album (John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band; 1970) than _Imagine_; and, shortly after Imagine (the album) was released in 1971, \*Imagine \*(the song) was released as a single with _It’s So Hard_ on the B-side. It was the B-side on the single that I bought but I’m in UK. Maybe different version released where you are. > [@](#): > > \*Imagine \*was also released as a single combined with _Happy Christmas (War is Over)_ and _Give Peace a Chance_. Are those songs anarchistic as well? Absolutely. Are you kidding me? Here’s a quote from Lennon about Give Peace a Chance: > [@](#): > > You see, I’m shy and aggressive so I have great hopes for what I do with my work and I also have great despair that it’s all pointless and it’s shit. You know, how can you beat Beethoven or Shakespeare or whatever? In me secret heart I wanted to write something that would take over “We Shall Overcome.” I don’t know why. The one they always sang, and I thought, “Why doesn’t somebody write something for the people now, that’s what my job and our job is.” > > I have the same kind of hope for “Working Class Hero.” It’s a different concept, but I feel it’s a revolutionary song. > > **In what respect?** > > It’s really just revolutionary. I think its concept is revolutionary, and I hope it’s for workers and not for tarts and fags. I hope it’s what “Give Peace A Chance” was about, but I don’t know. On the other hand, it might just be ignored. > > I think it’s for the people like me who are working class — whatever, upper or lower — who are supposed to be processed into the middle classes, through the machinery, that’s all. It’s my experience, and I hope it’s just a warning to people. I’m saying it’s a revolutionary song; not the song itself but that it’s a song for the revolution. > **[Working Class Hero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Class_Hero)** > > "Working Class Hero" is a song by John Lennon from his 1970 album John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band, his first album after the break-up of the Beatles. It was released as the B-side to the single "Imagine" in Britain on 24 October 1975. > Stridently political, the song is a commentary on the difference between social classes. According to Lennon, it is about working class people being processed into the middle classes, into the "machine". Lennon also said, "I think it's a revolutionary song – it's ... Don’t think it could be much clearer than that. What with horses mouths and stuff. > [@](#): > > I’d be interested in a cite that Lennon intended to two songs to be combined on a single as an anarchist manifesto. You may actually be right that he didn’t intend them to be on the same single - I didn’t buy the single when it originally came out but much later. But as for the anarchist manifesto bit, I think the quote above and the lyrics to Imagine pretty much bear me out. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/63 "2010-06-12T00:39:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Human nature is as human nature does, and in-group and out-group is part of the nature of the beast. Always has been and always will be, no matter what [granfalloons](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granfalloon) we need to create, even if they be whether you eat toast [butter side up or down](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Butter_Battle_Book). For most of our history we slaughtered our opponents, burning their cities to the ground, except when we took their women. We would have blood feuds. We don’t do that anymore - it is against the law, but for the most part we don’t want to. We can grow out of things. > [@](#): > > Still, as much harm as all the silly -isms cause, I’d still want to have them around. Food’s better for having the different religions and countries and ethnicities. Music too. The answer to conflicting ideas isn’t to imagine no differences; the answer is to imagine a world which agrees with some basic universal precepts that allow the differences to coexist and to intermingle, cross fertilize even. Religion doesn’t have all that much to do with food. In the US we are one country, yet we have plenty of regional variations without wanting to kill for our state. Why not t he same for the world? He’s talking about accepting differences. And nowhere does he say any of this is imposed on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/977dab/32.png) [@Captain\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370/64 "2010-06-12T11:31:19Z")
I always thought that John Lennon was at best a tool and at worst a dickhead. I’m sorry the man was murdered and all, but to me he was something of a libtard who didn’t practice what he preached. Because he is dead, and the fact that he was murdered, makes it difficult to be critical of the man. Let’s do this song per paragraph… **Imagine there’s no Heaven It’s easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today** Lennon was an atheist and an opponent of religion and religious faith. He was an open critic and mocker of Christianity. Personally, I do not believe in Christianity or religious ssytems. I think however, that Lennon was something of a loudmouth who decided that since the World was his stage, that he had the power to say whatever and people will eat it up. I like “Living for Today”. This is a tenant of 12 step and recovery groups. Live for Today. Don’t worry about what will happen in the future because the future may not come for you and you need to live for the now. Sounds good to me. **Imagine there’s no countries It isn’t hard to do** It would be nice to have a One World Government if it was fair and enlightened, but unfortunately, we humans are not like this. What if the One World Government turns ugly and the whole World is an Orwellian nightmare or like North Korea. That would suck. Or having all the countries in the World in some global Senate trying to solve problems. Do you think that would ever happen? **Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace** People die and kill for more than their nation. People would die for their family, their spouse, their children. People kill for multiple reasons. Living in a hippy dippy reality doesn’t change that. Charles Manson and his “Family” were all a bunch of dope smoking hippies who digged the Beatles and all that mantra, and we know what happened to them. Killing is in our nature. There are several people I would kill if the law would not put me in prison. There is always something to kill or die for, right or wrong. **You may say that I’m a dreamer But I’m not the only one I hope someday you’ll join us And the world will be as one** I dream all the time. We are all dreamers, but we dream different things. What dis John Lennon want people to join to? The pot smoking, Communist, Paul McCartney is a fag, eat tofu crowd? Well, if you liked Wings more than Yoko Ono, would John still liked you? If you believed in a free market economy, would he of liked you? If you thought Jesus was groovy, would John like you? I don’t know, I never met the man. For several years in the mid 1970’s, John Lennon basically disappeared into his own little world. He wanted to be seperate of whatever was happening outside. Perhaps all the people were driving him crazy and he was tired of being an ex-Beatle and people asking him to rejoin the band. Being that famous drives people over a cliff sometimes. **Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world** John Lennon had a lot of money, plenty of houses, food, cocaine, best liquor, lear jet entertainments, cars etc. The man had plenty of possessions. Yoko Ono is probably one of the wealthiest women in New York City with homes all over the World. Has she ever shared any of her possessions? I am sure that in her limo, she passes plenty of homeless on the streets. She could pay a flop for each of these people in NYC, yet she doesn’t. Why was John Lennon so wealthy? He was a fabulously rich guy after the Beatles, yet he created more music to make more money. Isn’t that the definition of greed? That he wanted to be a solo singer instead of probably making better music with his band? I like my possessions. What is mine is mine. I own it, I deserve it, it belongs to me. No, I cannot imagine the World with no possessions, this would simply mean that people would be naked sleeping outdoors. This is Communism, which is a pipe dream, written and sang by a man who was incredibly wealthy, who never shared any of his possessions, who hated those who didn’t agree with his philosophies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/society-in-john-lennons-imagine-utopia-or-dystopia/542370.md?page=3)