# Sociological question about norms, tastes, and marketing. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2011, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279 "2011-06-04T02:31:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/21 "2011-06-15T17:00:07Z")
Don’t forget about Prohibition. In the late 1800’s, beer was becoming more mass-produced (like many things) and there were fewer smaller breweries, but there were still a heck of a lot of them. With Prohibition, the big breweries produced near beer and had deep enough pockets to ride out the lean times. Smaller operations just folded. Post-Prohibition, changes to the laws (especially the requirement to sell to wholesalers rather than owning or controlling saloons) favored the big players. The arrival of canned beer in the 30’s and the increasing availability of home refrigeration also drove industry consolidation around the big canners. It wasn’t until the 80’s that people started to say, “Hey, these microbrews are pretty interesting” and consumer demand acted as a counterweight to the big players. (This is oversimplified – more detail can be found in [this very good article.](http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/stack.brewing.industry.history.us)) ---
**Author:** ![Fly\_Sparge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a698b9/32.png) [@Fly\_Sparge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fly_Sparge)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/22 "2011-06-15T17:47:22Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Today they are considered swill and sell for next to nothing. > > WHY? Actually, those beers are still quite good and credible! The Beer Judge Certification Program even lists several of your examples as “correct to style” in its Light Lager category. The public perception has changed largely due to marketing by Budweiser, Miller, and Coors. There’s a good video you can watch called “BeerWars” that goes into detail about the amount (and more importantly, types) of marketing and its effects on consumer perception. Chances are, once you realize what their strongest form of marketing is, you’ll never look at the beer isle in the grocery store the same again… Though it is an informative video, it is a propaganda film, so you’ll have to take some of the bad with the good. Personally, I find light lagers to be bland. Even higher quality beers like Estrella Damm don’t excite me (well, the brewing process does, but the drink doesn’t). However, just because I don’t care for it doesn’t mean that it is not a well made beer - and I believe that is the main difference between taste and judgement. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/23 "2011-06-16T05:04:06Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Most brewers were regional. True enough I guess. Plus there were a lot more smaller brewers out there putting out local stuff. There was something like 170 breweries at one time just in Wisconsin. Hell, the town I grew up in in the 60’s had it’s own [brewery](http://trayman.net/Images/OldGuys/West%20Bend.jpg) and there were only 8K people living there at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/24 "2011-06-16T07:03:12Z")
> [@villa](#): > > It is amusing seeing how Yuengling is sold as some kind of primo beer all over the place now, and my ex-father in law would tell me how it was the cheap swill when he was younger; same with Rolling Rock. I find this really entertaining as well. Yuengling remains my favorite beer-- not because I’m a hipster, but because I have super pedestrian tastes, and when I was in college (in NJ) it was the frat-party-keg-beer. It was what I got used to. And it has the advantage of tasting the same cold or at room temperature. . . which I’m not sure is actually a complimentary statement. They don’t sell it out in California and I miss it. My redneck Texan husband is equally amused by all the hipsters drinking PBR. If ever there was “back behind the shed” teenager beer, it’s PBR. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/25 "2011-06-16T13:45:41Z")
PBR is also _really, really cheap_. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/26 "2011-06-16T15:12:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > PBR is also _really, really cheap_. Around here PBR is $7.99 for a 12 pack of cans, while Hamms, Blatz, & Milwaukees Best are $5.99, $6.49, & $6.99 respectively, for a 12 pack of cans. So PBR is still more expensive than them. Minhas Mountain Creek is $4.99 for a 12 pack, but I don’t know if that is available nationwide like the others. For some reason Milwaukees Best Light can be bought here in glass bottles, but Milwaukees Best [Premium](http://www.millercoors.com/Portals/0/images/Products/logo/MilsBest.gif) cannot be. Milwaukees Best **Premium**. :pBwaaahahahaha!😛 If that’s not an oxymoron, nothing is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/27 "2011-06-16T16:29:25Z")
Well, it beats renaming the non-premium version Milwaukee’s Second Best. 😉 That’s odd. PBR is the same price as the various Beasts down here. ---
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/28 "2011-06-16T17:53:08Z")
Fashion and status have a lot to do with it too. Take bread. It used to be, bread was either home made or bought from a baker. Then commercially made white bread (think Wonder Bread) came out, and on top of the convenience factory there was the “cool” factory. I’ve read posts here from people who as kids begged their moms to get store white bread rather than home made. And now, “artisan” bread is back and is in thing. So did peoples’ tastes buds change? No. Marketing and fashion did. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/29 "2011-06-16T18:27:54Z")
The more experience you have of different things, the more likely you are to change your tastes. When I was a kid, there were something like 10,000 products available, vs. 40,000 today. What was considered tasty was being measured against a far narrower field, and that’s true of pretty much everything. What was considered a tasty meal in 1950 would be considered by many if not most people today to be pretty boring and pedestrian stuff. Same for beer. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/30 "2011-06-17T19:01:35Z")
My Newcastle is about $14.00 for 12 bottles. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/31 "2011-06-19T06:33:23Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The more experience you have of different things, the more likely you are to change your tastes. When I was a kid, there were something like 10,000 products available, vs. 40,000 today. What was considered tasty was being measured against a far narrower field, and that’s true of pretty much everything. What was considered a tasty meal in 1950 would be considered by many if not most people today to be pretty boring and pedestrian stuff. > > Same for beer. Exactly. Taste is relative. Something is the best until something better comes along. Would it seem so weird to you that, say, a Pentium 4 computer is now considered a snail, even though it didn’t get any slower? There’s also the element of the grass being greener. Think about McDonald’s. When it was new, it was great. No matter where you went, you got the same meal. But now that everyone has tasted McDonald’s all the time, they want the mom and pop stuff again. Being too popular means you start getting judged as bland. Ask people who never go out what they think of McDonald’s, and they tend to think the food is better than those of us who ate there a lot. We crave novel experiences. What is common, what is popular, becomes the standard and thus bland to us. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/32 "2011-06-19T17:39:00Z")
That’s different. A modern computer is _objectively_ superior to a Pentium. Bud Light is not objectively superior to Schlitz (or whatever). ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/33 "2011-06-19T21:55:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s different. A modern computer is _objectively_ superior to a Pentium. Bud Light is not objectively superior to Schlitz (or whatever). When it comes to taste, of course, nothing is objectively anything (my ex, upon being introduced to Ben & Jerry’s Hot Fudge Sundae, calmly and seriously informed me that Ben & Jerry’s could take a lesson from McDonalds in how to make a hot fudge sundae. I should have realized right then that we were ultimately doomed…) however, it is extremely likely that once you radically expand the field, there will be beers that are perceived as superior to the beer that was considered superior in a much smaller field. And that’s true in non-objective situations: the best (insert specific sport) athlete in the only local high school in a town of 5000 people is rarely going to be the best athlete once the pool is expanded to include the whole county, and the best high school athlete in the county is rarely going to turn out to be the best athlete in the state, and the best in the state is rarely best in the country and the best in the country is rarely the best in the world. What is considered best by most people in a field of 10 choices is rarely going to be considered best by most people in a field of 100, and the bigger that pool gets the more likely it is that the best-of-10 will not continue to be the best right up the line. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/34 "2011-06-20T01:15:51Z")
Fair enough. Your Pentium analogy still doesn’t work, though. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/35 "2011-06-21T22:48:48Z")
It’s all marketing and fashion. If somebody threw a party for all of the Dopers here and told them about a new micro brew that they just HAD to try and served it in frozen steins with a waiter pouring it from a keg while he was wearing white gloves, it could be Natural Light Ice and I’ll bet a dollar to anyone here that most people would gather around and comment about how wonderful this “new” beer was with many interesting comments. I’m not talking about the craft beer connoisseurs who represent \<1% of the population. I’m talking about the average Joe. So when Schlitz was what you drank at your buddy’s house, it was what you drank. When your buddies started drinking Budweiser and Schlitz was known as bar rag leftovers, you loved Bud and thought Schlitz tasted like shit. The power of persuasion is…er powerful. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/36 "2011-06-22T04:25:56Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > It’s all marketing and fashion. If somebody threw a party for all of the Dopers here and told them about a new micro brew that they just HAD to try and served it in frozen steins with a waiter pouring it from a keg while he was wearing white gloves, it could be Natural Light Ice and I’ll bet a dollar to anyone here that most people would gather around and comment about how wonderful this “new” beer was with many interesting comments. This would so not work on me. I’ve rated over 450 [beers](http://www.ratebeer.com/user/4000/ratings/) and I frequently pan brews that are considered sheik, or considered great beers. I could care less what anyone else thinks and I frequently tell people that the beer they think is so great (like Miller Genuine Draft:rolleyes: )is not for me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/37 "2011-06-22T05:19:10Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > I frequently pan brews that are considered sheik psst…it’s _chic_ ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/38 "2011-06-22T11:59:13Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > This would so not work on me. I’ve rated over 450 [beers](http://www.ratebeer.com/user/4000/ratings/) and I frequently pan brews that are considered sheik, or considered great beers. I could care less what anyone else thinks and I frequently tell people that the beer they think is so great (like Miller Genuine Draft:rolleyes: )is not for me. I put you in that \<1% of the population I was referring to. The average Joe doesn’t rate 450 different types of beer. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/39 "2011-06-22T12:27:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > … and I’ll bet a dollar to anyone here that most people would gather around and comment about how wonderful this “new” beer was with many interesting comments… Not me, I only like dark ales 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279/40 "2011-06-22T15:20:50Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > psst…it’s _chic_ Maybe they have oil interests. Bet you didn’t think of that, smarty pants. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociological-question-about-norms-tastes-and-marketing/584279.md?page=3)