# Sociopathic behavior **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 25, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228 "2011-07-25T01:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/41 "2011-07-26T06:18:40Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I can think of at least one psychopath I know who has an excellent relationship with his mother, who has always stood by his side, bailed him out on numerous occasions, paid his many probation fines and legal fees, and who will do anything to protect her baby boy from all those vicious, lying young women who made up all those terrible lies about him and got him sent to prison for no reason. All in all, a very useful person for a psychopath to have around. > > People can display some antisocial or psychopathic personality traits and still have some ability to care for other people (stunted or deficient sometimes, but present), but with a true psychopath it seems that they “care” about some people in the same way that I care about a houseplant or a car - I enjoy it because it’s a neat and/or useful thing to have around, but even if I talk to it and appear to like it I don’t actually share any true human empathy with it. Their relationships with their families and loved ones tends to be parasitic rather than mutually loving. It sounds like the mother knows this (whether consciously or subconsciously) and is engaging in this sort of enabling behavior JUST SO she can have a “pseudo-real” relationship with her son. There is probably sad desperation deep down motivating her. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/42 "2011-07-26T06:25:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Saying that most sociopaths don’t make long-term plans is misleading - most human beings don’t make long-term plans, period. In this sense, sociopaths are no different. As to the social contract, sociopaths certainly prefer to act in a society in which all people but them act in a manner consistent with the long term benefit to all parties; after all, it makes things easier for them. The way they see it, a wolf is much better off living among sheep. > > In other words, assuming that self-interest is the sole interest (and so long as all of society doesn’t think that way, why shouldn’t it be?) sociopaths are perfectly logical. Say you instruct a hypothetical superintelligent computer to act solely in its own self-interest - wouldn’t that computer act exactly like a sociopath? You seem to come to this topic with a sort of sophomore dorm room bull session level of philosophy; specifically, that if the sociopath is successful at getting what he wants, he must be the smartest guy in the room. The truth of the matter is that most sociopaths don’t want anything beyond immediate gratification; they don’t think logically about the ultimate consequences of their actions, and don’t engage in the social give and take that provides an emotional cushion and safety net . Most sociopaths are not ultimately successful people, or at least, not nearly as successful as they might be with greater genuine social aptitude. Violating social expectations of honesty and integrity typically have negative repercussions to the transgressor that eventually result in partial or complete exclusion; hence why many sociopaths are loners and transients who often prey on the emotionally vulnerable. A sociopath may gain the upper hand by taking advantage of the group altruistic nature of other people, but he or she will probably not be able to maintain the kind of trust necessary to continue “using” someone, whereas the normal give and take between trusted business acquaintances and friends allows one to “use” them over and over again, with the tacit assurance that aid provided will be paid in future dividends. A game theory analysis of human social behavior–and there are thousands of these of varying degrees of fidelity and value–generally converge on a cooperative strategy that includes acts of asymmetrical altruism as a display of good faith and allows only very limited predatory self-interest. So no, I wouldn’t expect a “hypothetical super intelligent computer to act solely in its own self-interest,” to behave in a fashion destructive to its patrons; it would calculate just what it could get away with indefinitely while as a cost versus benefit analysis. To borrow your analogy, the wolf may use his ways to feed upon one or two sheep in the flock, but sooner or later the sheep will flee at the sight of the wolf, and he’ll have to find a new flock. Being a sheep, however, provides advantages against predation, disease, et cetera. Of course, the shepherd needs guard dogs, too, which are a sort of middle ground; a creature that doesn’t object to aggression and the shedding of blood, but appreciates the necessity of protecting rather than preying on sheep. The dogs, while carnivores, appreciate that their self-interest is intertwined with the survival of the sheep; the wolves only know that sheep is tasty and they want some, now. Which do you think lives a longer, healthier, and more satisfying life? Sociopaths are often clever, but they are rarely “smart”, in the sense of cultivating the kind of social relationships that would allow them to maintain an advantage indefinitely. Even when they do, they are often enabled by the emotional dependence and insecurity of others. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/43 "2011-07-26T06:56:39Z")
In a sense, I agree with you. A normal person will have an advantage over a sociopath of average or lower intelligence, because normal people are instinctively capable of acting as members of society, while sociopaths aren’t. However, a highly intelligent sociopath will overcome this problem by faking social instincts, enjoying society’s benefits while ignoring its restrictions. That’s what makes them so dangerous. Sociopaths are no more or less intelligent than anyone else. Some are stupid, most are average, and a few are smart. It’s the smart ones - the Bernie Madoffs and Joseph Stalins - who you have to look out for. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/44 "2011-07-26T13:41:21Z")
I read an article a few months ago (possibly about one of the author’s listed above) which mentioned an interesting thing. Years ago, they found a reliable test for a 'path was to wire them up to a machine with a timer and an electric shock. Ring a buzzer and wait a fixed time before you shock them. Regular folk quickly put two and two together and would exhibit fright behavior between the buzzer and the shock. Increased sweating, pulse, breathing. 'paths wouldn’t. They knew they were going to get shocked and just didn’t care. This “test” is now banned due causing pain (but no burns, scars, etc.). This is a key aspect. They not only don’t care about harming others (seeing them as things), but they don’t care about harm to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/45 "2011-07-26T19:31:35Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > I read an article a few months ago (possibly about one of the author’s listed above) which mentioned an interesting thing. Years ago, they found a reliable test for a 'path was to wire them up to a machine with a timer and an electric shock. > > Ring a buzzer and wait a fixed time before you shock them. Regular folk quickly put two and two together and would exhibit fright behavior between the buzzer and the shock. Increased sweating, pulse, breathing. 'paths wouldn’t. They knew they were going to get shocked and just didn’t care. > > This “test” is now banned due causing pain (but no burns, scars, etc.). > > This is a key aspect. They not only don’t care about harming others (seeing them as things), but they don’t care about harm to themselves. This result fits in with the general information regarding the lack of emotional life that is present in the mind of a psychopath. Fear (anticipation of the pain of the electrical shock) is an emotional state (Schachter’s Two-Fact Theory of emotion states that emotions are a combination of a physiological arousal state and a cognitive label of that state). The fact that the psychopath neither exhibited the cognitive label of “hey, my palms are sweaty and my heart’s beating faster, I must be scared” NOR the actual physiological arousal itself is a pretty good indication that emotional experiences are not occurring in a psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![yanceylebeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yanceylebeef/32/12290_2.png) [@yanceylebeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yanceylebeef)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/46 "2011-07-26T19:49:08Z")
Another recommendation for a book is [The Psychopath Tes](http://www.amazon.com/Psychopath-Test-Journey-Through-Industry/dp/1594488010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311709607&sr=8-1)t by Jon Ronson. From the description…“is a fascinating journey through the minds of madness. Jon Ronson’s exploration of a potential hoax being played on the world’s top neurologists takes him, unexpectedly, into the heart of the madness industry. An influential psychologist who is convinced that many important CEOs and politicians are, in fact, psychopaths teaches Ronson how to spot these high-flying individuals by looking out for little telltale verbal and nonverbal clues. And so Ronson, armed with his new psychopath-spotting abilities, enters the corridors of power. He spends time with a death-squad leader institutionalized for mortgage fraud in Coxsackie, New York; a legendary CEO whose psychopathy has been speculated about in the press; and a patient in an asylum for the criminally insane who insists he’s sane and certainly not a psychopath.” It’s by the same journolist who wrote “The Men Who Stare At Goats” and is a really entertaining, and frightening read. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/47 "2011-07-26T19:54:13Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > Another recommendation for a book is [The Psychopath Tes](http://www.amazon.com/Psychopath-Test-Journey-Through-Industry/dp/1594488010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311709607&sr=8-1)t by Jon Ronson. > > It’s by the same journolist who wrote “The Men Who Stare At Goats” and is a really entertaining, and frightening read. I’m not sure I’ll be able to take seriously a book that talks without irony about a concept like “the madness industry,” (said phrase being chock full of bias), but I’ll put it on my list. ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/48 "2011-07-27T06:20:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you see my questions in post #2? was told by a psychologist yrs ago, not a forensic specialist or anything I don’t think. didn’t believe it at the time & resented it…but as many yrs have gone by have had to accept that certain things seem to be true—the intelligence used for manipulation & covert behavior, the charm that gets cut off like a spigot when gratification doesn’t come about (a scary thing to see—makes you KNOW that the “caring” was fake), the rages that can go on for a long time with the same intensity—no building up or tapering off, only stopped by some outside influence. I was going to ask if there might be different levels of sociopathic illness but from reading the posts it seems there are only different degrees—not “how sociopathic are they” but “how much of it do they exhibit.” ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228/49 "2011-07-27T06:24:21Z")
> [@bunnymom](#): > > I just wanted to step in and say that Stranger is right on with his description. My ex has (undiagnosed) ASPD and our son has been diagnosed with it too. Its hard to believe anyone can be as deceptive and self serving as Stranger describes but it is all too true. > It really is all about what they can get from you and when the well runs dry they move on. It really is true that therapy is wasted on them - at most I have observed my son manipulate counselors to bring them round where he wants them. Usually this means my son plays the victim and is willfully blind to his behavior. The counselors would then help him by making it about how others misunderstood his intentions or some such. This just made counseling worthless and sometimes even enabling. The ex did it too. > > Luckily I recently found him a counselor who specialises in personality disorders so at least he isnt able to play games with her. > > Meds do little if anything though we have had some success with Lithium to help control the rages. Getting him to take them is sometimes tough and you have to make sure he actually swallowed them. He has been given Lexapro for depression and it does seem to help with that. I have learned that depression can be co-morbid with ASPD. But there is nothing to treat the ASPD itself. > > If I as just a mom and not a professional can recommend a book try “Bad Boys; Bad Men” by Donald Black. Pretty easy to read and not super technical but very interesting and as far as I can tell accurate. everything you’ve said here is right on [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopathic-behavior/590228.md?page=2)