# Sociopaths: admired by Vulcans, or considered to be cheating? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250 "2013-10-14T20:17:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/1 "2013-10-14T20:17:16Z")
Random thought last night when I was thinking about the “issues” episodes in all of the various Star Trek serieses, and I happened to think that it was a bit unfortunate that Enterprise didn’t do well, because it wasn’t that much later (maybe 3-5 years) that the phenomenon of sociopaths and psychopaths really kicked off in popular culture, and wouldn’t that be an interesting “issue” episode, especially from a Vulcan perspective. I was thinking about how Vulcans pride themselves on being logical and emotionless, and how that would interact with sociopathy being a known human disorder - Would they think sociopaths were stigmatized unfairly? Would they think sociopaths were cheating somehow? Odd thought, and I couldn’t really decide what they would think. (Obviously I’m not talking about the criminal/violence angle - most sociopaths aren’t Dexter - they’re very successful upper-management.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/2 "2013-10-14T20:21:00Z")
They’re not emotionless. They’re in complete control of their emotions. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/3 "2013-10-14T20:33:09Z")
They’re also not selfish, which is one of the defining traits of a sociopath. A sociopath is never going to say, “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.” Particularly not if he’s the “one.” ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/4 "2013-10-14T20:36:38Z")
I’ve never heard of sociopaths as being particularly unemotional themselves. They’re just not very concerned with _other_ people’s emotions. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/5 "2013-10-14T20:39:29Z")
I love the Dope. This reminds of that thread “Can Superman Rip His Own Head Off?” ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/6 "2013-10-14T20:56:15Z")
Can he? Lynx?? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/7 "2013-10-14T20:58:39Z")
Can Superman rip his own head off? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7128461](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7128461) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/8 "2013-10-14T21:10:51Z")
Sociopaths are not emotionless. They just don’t value others. So from a traditional Vulcan point of view, Sociopaths would be undesirable. So when you consider how many of our leaders are sociopaths… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/9 "2013-10-14T21:14:10Z")
Yeah, I think what would most confuse Vulcans is figuring out how we differentiate these “sociopaths” from normal humans. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/10 "2013-10-14T21:57:27Z")
In _**[The Savage Curtain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Savage_Curtain)**_, the original series addresses the question pretty directly, but without the labels. Surak is the Vulcan who started the whole cultural shift, and an incarnation of him sacrifices himself for the group. The bad guys are archetypal sociopaths - mustache-twirlers. Colonel Green was the Hitler of the Eugenics Wars, there’s some Klingon asshole (original series, after all), there’s some woman who did Mengele-like experiments, and Genghis Khan. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/11 "2013-10-14T22:43:16Z")
> [@bup](#): > > In _**[The Savage Curtain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Savage_Curtain)**_, the original series addresses the question pretty directly, but without the labels. > > Surak is the Vulcan who started the whole cultural shift, and an incarnation of him sacrifices himself for the group. The bad guys are archetypal sociopaths - mustache-twirlers. Colonel Green was the Hitler of the Eugenics Wars, there’s some Klingon asshole (original series, after all), there’s some woman who did Mengele-like experiments, and Genghis Khan. That “Klingon asshole” was Kah’Less (or however it’s spelled). The one that Worf seemed to get a boner over all the time the way Spock would over Surak if vulcans got boners at times other than ponfar. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/12 "2013-10-14T22:56:01Z")
> [@bup](#): > > In _**[The Savage Curtain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Savage_Curtain)**_, the original series addresses the question pretty directly, but without the labels. > > Surak is the Vulcan who started the whole cultural shift, and an incarnation of him sacrifices himself for the group. The bad guys are archetypal sociopaths - mustache-twirlers. Colonel Green was the Hitler of the Eugenics Wars, there’s some Klingon asshole (original series, after all), there’s some woman who did Mengele-like experiments, and Genghis Khan. Frankly, it annoyed me that Genghis was portrayed as little more than a mute thug, _but_ the key aspect is not that these were accurate depictions of the historical characters, but pastiches based on Kirk’s and Spock’s (and possibly other crew members’) impressions of these characters. Similarly, the cloned Kahless that eventually appeared on TNG is at best a heavily mythologized version of the original. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/13 "2013-10-15T00:02:41Z")
In [_The Enemy Within,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enemy_Within_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)) a transporter malfunction does a Jekyll/Hyde split on Kirk. Evil Kirk is a sociopath who goes after whatever he wants and screw the rules and others’ rights – but Good Kirk is an indecisive, ineffectual, cowardly weakling. It’s implied he couldn’t function as we know him without both sides. Definitely a moral, for a certain value of morals. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/14 "2013-10-15T00:36:59Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > I’ve never heard of sociopaths as being particularly unemotional themselves. I have - “sociopath” is one of those words that keeps getting redefined a lot. In the book [Descarte’s Error](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descartes%27_Error) for example it’s used to refer to people who essentially have no emotions. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/15 "2013-10-15T00:40:46Z")
Data and Spock actually had an interesting little conversation along these lines, in Unification part II— > [@](#): > > Ambassador Spock: He intrigues me, this Picard. > > Lt. Commander Data: In what manner, sir? > > Ambassador Spock: Remarkably analytical and dispassionate - for a Human. I understand why my father chose to mind meld with him. There’s an almost Vulcan quality to the man. > > Lt. Commander Data: Interesting. I had not considered that. And Captain Picard has been a role model in my quest to be more human. > > Ambassador Spock: [looks at him] _More_ human? > > Lt. Commander Data: Yes, Ambassador. > > Ambassador Spock: Fascinating. You have an efficient intellect, superior physical skills, no emotional impediments. There are Vulcans who aspire all their lives to achieve what you’ve been given by design. > > Lt. Commander Data: Hm. - You are half Human? > > Ambassador Spock: Yes. > > Lt. Commander Data: Yet you have chosen a Vulcan way of life? > > Ambassador Spock: I have. > > Lt. Commander Data: In effect, you have abandoned what I have sought all _my_ life. > (…) > Lt. Commander Data: Ambassador Spock, may I ask a personal question? > > Ambassador Spock: Please. > > Lt. Commander Data: As you examine your life, do you find you have missed your humanity? > > Ambassador Spock: I have no regrets. > > Lt. Commander Data: “No regrets”. That is a human expression. > > Ambassador Spock: Yes… Fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sociopaths-admired-by-vulcans-or-considered-to-be-cheating/671250/16 "2013-10-15T01:00:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A sociopath is never going to say, “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.” Well, he’d say it if he’s one of _“the many”_ and you happen to be _“the one.”_