# Socrates's Persecution was Unjust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127 "2013-01-05T02:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![half-elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@half-elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/half-elf)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/21 "2013-01-05T04:24:42Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > But then again, us Americans do favor the defense naturally. See in the ancient times, people normally favored the prosecution and didn’t want to listen to the other side. That’s what happened to Socrates. They didn’t even bother to understand and listen to him. They just came up with bogus excuses that showed how paranoid they were. Well, there were no Americans in the Athens “re-trial” last year. (TBH, there may have been one on the panel but I can’t be bothered searching right now.) I would think that the farther back in time one goes, the harder it would have been to oppose or to stand up to TPTWere at the time. Both “re-trials” are available on the internet, if you can be bothered to look them up. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/22 "2013-01-05T04:36:09Z")
Of course, all we know about the trial and death of Socrates comes from the writings of his friends and pupils, Xenophon and Plato. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/23 "2013-01-05T04:37:49Z")
IRL, the Death of Socrates was probably more like [this.](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe3vk3_the-death-of-socrates-starring-stev_fun)😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/24 "2013-01-05T04:48:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A lovely little thinker. But a bugger when he’s pissed. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/25 "2013-01-05T04:50:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > IRL, the Death of Socrates was probably more like [this.](http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe3vk3_the-death-of-socrates-starring-stev_fun)😉 Hemlock :smack: I thought he was killed with ham hocks. Well now it makes a lot more sense. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/26 "2013-01-05T04:52:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He was guilty. So was Thomas More. We can sit here in our society and say the laws they broke were unjust. But they were the laws of the societies these men lived in and they knew they faced death for breaking these laws. And Socrates (if we can trust [Plato’s account](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crito)) **accepted** that. After he was condemned, his friends offered to arrange his escape from jail and from Athens, but Socrates would have none of it. > [@](#): > > Socrates tells Crito that he is one of those people who must be guided by reason, while Crito has insisted that he be obeyed in this matter regardless of whether he has convinced Socrates. Socrates claims that he was serious at his trial about not fearing death. He expresses contempt for the opinions of the masses of mankind who think irrationally and act randomly. Socrates says that the only person whose opinion is of value is the one who understands justice.[3] Money, reputation and feeding children are values of thoughtless men.[4] The question is whether it would be unjust for Socrates to escape, not what people would think about him. > > Socrates argues that if it is never good to do injustice, then certainly it is never good to do injustice in response to injustice. He says that this premise will be taken as true for the purpose of their discussion.[5] Crito says he agrees with Socrates. > > This does not answer whether it is just or unjust for Socrates to escape from the prison, so Socrates asks what the Laws would say about his leaving. Socrates claims that the Laws would say that he destroys the city in leaving, and this unjustly. The Laws say that a citizen stands in relation to the city as the child does to the parent, as the slave does to his master. > > The Laws would further say, Socrates says, that he entered into a contract with them by remaining within the city, benefiting from it, and so now cannot justly attack it on account of having been unjustly convicted. Socrates says the laws argue that he tacitly agreed to obey the law by remaining in Athens after having reached maturity, witnessing the structure of the law and how it functions, and raising children of his own in Athens. > > Socrates does not declare that he is satisfied with the Laws’ argument, instead asking Crito whether they mustn’t accept it. Crito says they must, and so the dialogue comes to a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/27 "2013-01-05T04:58:05Z")
Of course, this was the same Socrates who defied the Tyranny of the Thirty when they ordered him to arrest enemies of the state; and his philosophy offers no grounds to suppose the rule of the Thirty any less legitimate than the later democratic state that condemned him. ---
**Author:** ![llcoolbj77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/eb9ed0/32.png) [@llcoolbj77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/llcoolbj77)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/28 "2013-01-05T04:58:39Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > But then again, us Americans do favor the defense naturally. See in the ancient times, people normally favored the prosecution and didn’t want to listen to the other side. That’s what happened to Socrates. They didn’t even bother to understand and listen to him. They just came up with bogus excuses that showed how paranoid they were. I beg to differ. But I am only speaking from my experience as a criminal defense attorney. You may learn something different next year in 12th grade US Government. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/29 "2013-01-05T05:03:36Z")
BTW, **Anonymous User,** if this subject interests you, you really should read the historical novel [_The Last of the Wine,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_the_Wine) by Mary Renault; Socrates is a main character and most of the other main characters are his pupils. And it’s a really good read, too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/30 "2013-01-05T05:06:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Legendary cornhole enthusiast gets dead. No fair! Now, now! This was the dude who had the chance to cornhole the beautiful young Alcibiades and passed it up! Of which Alcibiades later incredulously complained. Again, if [Plato’s account](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium_(Plato)) is to be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/31 "2013-01-05T05:10:16Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Dude was cool. Did Bill & Ted a big favor. Definitely bogus treatment. “Well, philosophize with him!” “All right . . . As the sands through the hourglass, so go the Days of Our Lives!” ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/32 "2013-01-05T06:07:13Z")
For further reading try [Picture This](http://www.amazon.com/Picture-This-Novel-Joseph-Heller/dp/0684868199) by Joseph Heller. A fantastic novel not only about Socrates but also Rembrant and the Dutch and current New York and America. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/33 "2013-01-05T06:40:36Z")
Socrates managed to play his little word games and embarrass virtually every Athenian who ever gave him the time of day. They probably would not have put him to death for that. But he also was a teacher of Alcibiades. And at least one of the tyrants. Alcibiades alone would have been dangerous enough to be associated with. The tyrants didn’t help anything as far as Socrates goes. Socrates taught people to question everything, and this is really irritating. Especially to people who don’t like to question everything or anything. He taught that there was a real truth, but declined to say what it was. In short, he was the town wise ass and know it all. Death by snoo snoo? I wouldn’t vote for it, even back in Athens 399 b.c. But I might have gone for a flogging. The common Athenian felt about Socrates they way Aristophanes portrayed him in theater: an annoying know it all. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/34 "2013-01-05T07:18:29Z")
TLDR: I’m a giant douchebag and own a history textbook. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/35 "2013-01-05T07:24:10Z")
I literally burst out laughing when I saw the length of the OP. Did anyone here actually manage or even try to read it all? ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/36 "2013-01-05T08:20:13Z")
[kneels down and prays:] Please, dear Mod, can’t you ban this dumbass, before he makes more threads like this? Sure, no rules were violated, but can’t you make a ruling under ‘Don’t be a Jerk’, that this sort of thread is, in fact, jerkish? I pray this in Cecil’s name, Amen. [rises and goes to drink many beers] ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/37 "2013-01-05T09:00:34Z")
will your next pit thread be about Gaius Julius Caesar, Dictator? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/38 "2013-01-05T09:14:02Z")
So, he invented a salad, big hairy ass deal. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/39 "2013-01-05T09:20:56Z")
And he fucked potatoes. Isn’t that what Dictator means? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/40 "2013-01-05T10:26:06Z")
I drank what? CMC [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=3)