# Socrates's Persecution was Unjust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127 "2013-01-05T02:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/41 "2013-01-05T10:43:35Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > All we are is dust in the wind, dude. Woah. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/42 "2013-01-05T11:56:37Z")
So I am told…Socrates was widely lauded for his wisdom. One day an acquaintance ran up to him excitedly and said, ‘Socrates, do you know what I just heard about one of your students?’ ‘Wait a moment,’ Socrates replied. ‘Before you tell me I’d like you to pass a little test. It’s called the Triple Filter Test.’ ‘Triple filter?’ asked the acquaintance. ‘That’s right,’ Socrates continued. 'Before you talk to me about my student let’s take a moment to filter what you’re going to say. The first filter is Truth. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?’ ‘No,’ the man said, ‘actually I just heard about it.’ ‘All right,’ said Socrates. 'So you don’t really know if it’s true or not. Now let’s try the second filter, the filter of Goodness. Is what you are about to tell me about my student something good?’ ‘No, on the contrary …’. ‘So,’ Socrates continued, ‘you want to tell me something bad about him, even though you’re not certain it’s true?’. The man shrugged, a little embarrassed. Socrates continued.’ You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter - the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful to me?’ ‘No, not really…’ ‘Well,’ concluded Socrates, ‘if what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me at all?’ The man was defeated and ashamed. This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem. It also explains why he never found out that Plato was shagging his wife. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/43 "2013-01-05T12:04:20Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > But then again, us Americans do favor the defense naturally. See in the ancient times, people normally favored the prosecution and didn’t want to listen to the other side. That’s what happened to Socrates. They didn’t even bother to understand and listen to him. They just came up with bogus excuses that showed how paranoid they were. No…just, no. That’s not how it worked in Antiquity (there’s also a lot of context for Socrates’ trial and career that is missing here, but then again, I’m presuming this is a high school intro class). Anyway, at least your teacher has got your class motivated, which is always a good thing, so kudos to him (Greek word that means, ‘Awesome, dude’.) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/44 "2013-01-05T12:11:35Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Instead he flat out did what it would take a man to do. Well, as a man, he couldn’t help doing what it would take a man to do. If he didn’t do it, he wouldn’t be a man. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/45 "2013-01-05T14:19:00Z")
So Socrates was screwed in the end … which is … the Greek way, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/46 "2013-01-05T15:03:07Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Death by snoo snoo? I wouldn’t vote for it, even back in Athens 399 b.c. But I might have gone for a flogging. The common Athenian felt about Socrates they way Aristophanes portrayed him in theater: an annoying know it all. Athenian court procedure had a system. The law defined one punishment (in this case death). But the defendant had the right to suggest an alternative lesser punishment. And the jury could vote on which of the two punishments to impose. If Socrates had suggested some lesser punishment like being exiled or being forbidden from teaching, the jury most likely would have gone for it. But Socrates suggestion for his “punishment” was that he be given a public pension for his good work. As I wrote before, he was essentially pushing the government into executing him. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/47 "2013-01-05T16:28:48Z")
> [@Ms\_Boods](#): > > Socrates continued.’ You may still pass the test though, because there is a third filter - the filter of Usefulness. Is what you want to tell me about my student going to be useful to me?’ > > ‘No, not really…’ > > ‘Well,’ concluded Socrates, ‘if what you want to tell me is neither True nor Good nor even Useful, why tell it to me at all?’ > > The man was defeated and ashamed. > > This is the reason Socrates was a great philosopher and held in such high esteem. > > It also explains why he never found out that Plato was shagging his wife. Arguably, the bit of news would have been useful… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/48 "2013-01-05T16:53:07Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Blaspheming the gods: > > I really do not have to go into this much. It is clear he did not such thing. There is actually sufficient evidence that he was a religious man, and there is absolutely no evidence to prove he blasphemed the gods. Socrates claimed to have a “divine sign,” a personal god or _daimon_ living in his head, that guided him, at least to the extent of warning him what course of action or train of thought was **wrong,** never what was right. (A metaphor for a certain kind of intuition, perhaps, or for a moral conscience.) This was not exactly heresy or blasphemy, there was nothing in the state religion or traditional mythology ruling out the existence of such a thing; but it amounted to claiming he was a prophet, which was bound to make a lot of other Athenians look at him funny. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/49 "2013-01-05T17:28:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > … _it amounted to claiming he was a prophet_, which was bound to make a lot of other Athenians look at him funny. This is news to me. Who thought that Socrates having/hearing a _daimon_ “amounted to claiming” that he was a “prophet”? Plato? Socrates’ accusers at the trial? Later writers? My impression was that his students and followers considered him a _philosopher_, rather than a prophet, and that his accusers and enemies considered him a blasphemer. Bigger question (obviously a hijack, but hey): Was it common for folks in those days to claim to have/hear a _daimon_, or was Socrates kinda unique in this regard? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/50 "2013-01-05T17:56:01Z")
Why are we doing this guy’s homework for him? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/51 "2013-01-05T18:01:26Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Bigger question (obviously a hijack, but hey): Was it common for folks in those days to claim to have/hear a _daimon_, or was Socrates kinda unique in this regard? I recall a dialogue, forget which one, where ways-of-knowing are being discussed, and Socrates remarks that his own divine sign is so rare that it is hardly worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/52 "2013-01-05T18:07:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I recall a dialogue, forget which one, where ways-of-knowing are being discussed, and Socrates remarks that his own divine sign is so rare that it is hardly worth mentioning. Very interesting, didn’t know that, thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/53 "2013-01-05T18:16:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Why are we doing this guy’s homework for him? We want him to get an A in world history? To that end, I would like him to include this tidbit in his essay on Socrates. Socrates often ate unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/54 "2013-01-05T18:35:14Z")
You are not. We are done with Socrates in school. I already did the homework. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/55 "2013-01-05T18:40:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Athenian court procedure had a system. The law defined one punishment (in this case death). But the defendant had the right to suggest an alternative lesser punishment. And the jury could vote on which of the two punishments to impose. > > If Socrates had suggested some lesser punishment like being exiled or being forbidden from teaching, the jury most likely would have gone for it. But Socrates suggestion for his “punishment” was that he be given a public pension for his good work. > > As I wrote before, he was essentially pushing the government into executing him. You are exactly correct. I was having fun essentially condemning Socrates to forever have to listen to snoo snoo, the 75th governor of New Hampshire. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/56 "2013-01-05T18:42:37Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > You are not. We are done with Socrates in school. I already did the homework. Well, the essay is way too good for even an A in high school. And lacks citations, so it isn’t for college. It’s also too good for an A in college. You have a talent at this. Either that, or I didn’t check for plagiarism using Google. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/57 "2013-01-05T18:53:43Z")
Now that you’ve upended the conventional thinking about Socrates and sent historians of Ancient Greece scrabbling to re-write their textbooks, **Anonymous User** , what’s next for you? Will it turn out that Hitler was _wrong_ to try and wipe out the Jews, and was it _wrong_ to capture and transplant people for slavery? Will you shock the academic elite by proclaiming that Stalin _shouldn’t_ have starved and imprisoned millions from Russia and the surrounding states? Perhaps you’ll delve into the moral ambiguity of Abraham Lincoln’s assassination, or the killing of Medgar Evers? I await with trepidation your next overturning of the conventional wisdom of the lazy learned. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/58 "2013-01-05T21:59:45Z")
Vizzini: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Man in Black: Yes. Vizzini: Morons. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/59 "2013-01-05T22:18:34Z")
Complex exploration of the bleeding obvious. Plato says we are limited by our perceptions, like shadows in a cave. Fucking deep, Plato. Go bore somebody else. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/60 "2013-01-05T22:21:50Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Are you going to start a thread about every goddamned thing you learn in AP history? > [@Ms\_Boods](#): > > No…just, no. That’s not how it worked in Antiquity (there’s also a lot of context for Socrates’ trial and career that is missing here, but then again, I’m presuming this is a high school intro class). > > Anyway, at least your teacher has got your class motivated, which is always a good thing, so kudos to him (Greek word that means, ‘Awesome, dude’.) I’m actually in a freshman honors World History I class. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > We want him to get an A in world history? To that end, I would like him to include this tidbit in his essay on Socrates. > > Socrates often ate unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, the essay is way too good for even an A in high school. And lacks citations, so it isn’t for college. It’s also too good for an A in college. You have a talent at this. Either that, or I didn’t check for plagiarism using Google. I average a 95 in this class after the semester for now. I got a 95 for the first quarter, and I have a 95 this quarter right now. You actually liked the essay? I thought this was one of my weakest pieces of writing and actually did not think I did too well. I haven’t gotten my grade yet (I’ll reveal it once I get it). The citations aren’t there because our history teacher doesn’t want us putting in citations right now; the kind of writing is practice for the CAPT test coming up next year so he’s having us write a lot of these kinds of essays (we had to do one on Sparta vs. Athens (who had the better educational system), and there’s one coming up on why or why not you think Alexander the Great deserved the title “Great” after his name). And in a CAPT essay you are basically given the articles and you have 65 minutes to read them and write an essay. Right now, he’s not having us do it at quite that speed; we are actually getting a long amount of time to write the essays. But one of them he had us prepare for and then said he would have us write the essay in class - 42 minutes. This essay that I included in my OP was one of those kinds where you have like a week(s) to plan and write your essay so that may be why it was good (I still can’t tell whether you meant it in sarcasm, or literally). The essay question, like I said was, do you think Socrates committed treason against the city-state, Athens? Anyways, if you did like the essay, what was so good about it? What did you like about it? EDIT: There was no plagiarism. It’s all in my own words. The facts are obviously from other sources, but remember he didn’t have us cite those. I’m sure if we were in college, we would have to cite them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=4)