# Socrates's Persecution was Unjust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127 "2013-01-05T02:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/61 "2013-01-05T22:31:17Z")
I, for one, am anxiously awaiting the 3,500 word diatribe on the Spanish Inquisition. And I hope the OP uses spoiler boxes, because I’m not sure how it turns out. ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/62 "2013-01-05T22:33:32Z")
Um…holy useless wall of text from a young man who believes he’s learning things. Dude! Where’s So-Crates? And Napoleon’s a DICK! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/63 "2013-01-05T22:50:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I, for one, am anxiously awaiting the 3,500 word diatribe on the Spanish Inquisition. > > And I hope the OP uses spoiler boxes, because I’m not sure how it turns out. Trick ending, one you would never expect. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/64 "2013-01-05T22:59:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, all we know about the trial and death of Socrates comes from the writings of his friends and pupils, Xenophon and Plato. Just sayin’. This. If the story is told by the right people, Davin Koresh sounds like a saint. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/65 "2013-01-05T23:42:59Z")
OK, OP, I read a lot of this thread and a lot of your Alexander thread, and here’s what I have to say. The reason that you’re getting a hell of a lot of snarky replies on here is that, for most of us, the fact that history is full of cruelty and injustice is _nothing fucking new_. Alexander killed a whole bunch of guys? Yup, he sure did, as did thousands of kings, leaders and politicians, before and since. And yes, Socrates seemed nice enough, and yet was put to death. Sucks, that, but so it goes. See, that is what happens when you grow older. You develop thicker skin. Not every outrage makes you outraged. You chill out. Now, I think it’s absolutely wonderful that you enjoy studying history (so do I, and so do a whole lot of other Dopers), and by all means I want you to continue with that, but for your own sake, I’d recommend trying out a little bit of that thick-skinned, chilled-out attitude while doing so. Why? Because if you’re gonna get all worked up about every injustice there ever was, you’re gonna have a heart attack before you’re even done with… Well, college or high school or whatever. Don’t get me wrong now, moral indignation has its place and its time. But Alexander? Socrates? Shit that went down two thousand years ago? Just not worth it, mate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/66 "2013-01-06T00:55:11Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Don’t get me wrong now, moral indignation has its place and its time. But Alexander? Socrates? Shit that went down two thousand years ago? Just not worth it, mate. **Lots** of people feel moral indignation over [shit that went down two thousand years ago.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion_of_Jesus) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/67 "2013-01-06T01:08:19Z")
Yeah, I liked it, and being a student of Greek history from the Persian invasion to the death of Alexander, I’m familiar with the subject matter. For high school AP it’s a definite A. Also for my University professor if it had cites and no errors in grammar and spelling. I haven’t checked it for that. He was weird that way. Probably still is. For University history, sourcing is the whole point of the exercise. Preferably original sources. My recollection is that Plato is the only eyewitness of the trial to write about it. The other sources are secondary. Did Socrates get a bum deal? Sure. But it beats an obscure death, which he pretty clearly understood. The point is obvious that he got a bum deal. Don’t let that or the geezers here get you down stating the obvious. You’ve got to state the obvious before you can revolutionize the field. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/68 "2013-01-06T01:11:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Complex exploration of the bleeding obvious. Plato says we are limited by our perceptions, like shadows in a cave. Fucking deep, Plato. Go bore somebody else. Well, the more important questions is why only philosophers have perceptions? Are perceptions anything other than farts in the wind? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/69 "2013-01-06T01:25:10Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > My recollection is that Plato is the only eyewitness of the trial to write about it. The other sources are secondary. [Apparently.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Xenophon)) > [@](#): > > Specialists believe that Xenophon’s interpretation of the trial was written in response to a widespread literary reaction following the trial, where Athenian public figures and authors used the theme of Socrates’s trial to state their views on his guilt. Xenophon presents his account as being the only one of them that made Socrates’ “boastful manner of speaking” (megalēgoria) at the trial understandable.[1] Xenophon was away at the time of the events, involved in the events of the march of the Ten Thousand. He cites Hermogenes as his source for the factual elements of Socrates’ speech. It is probable that Hermogenes had indeed witnessed the trial: although Plato’s Apology does not mention his presence, his Phaedo lists Hermogenes among those who were present at Socrates’ death. Can’t seem to find any other cites on that “widespread literary reaction,” at least some of which might have been penned by eyewitnesses – perhaps, like most books of the period, those simply have not survived. [See also:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates#Historical_descriptions) > [@](#): > > **Historical descriptions** > > The first tetralogy of dialogues by Plato, Socrates’ student, has the trial and execution of Socrates as central theme: Euthyphro, Apology, Crito and Phaedo. Also Xenophon wrote the Apology of Socrates to the jury. > > An Athenian rhetoric expert, Polycrates, also wrote a pamphlet called the Prosecution of Socrates in 392 BC. Although the contents of the pamphlet itself do not survive, we do have written replies to it by Xenophon and Libanius of Antioch. The pamphlet was supposedly a record of the prosecution speech made by Anytus, one of Socrates’ formal accusers. Polycrates’ account has Anytus condemning Socrates for activity prior to 403 BC, which would be in violation of general amnesty granted by the reconciliation agreement of 403/402 BC.[17] The reconciliation agreement of 403/402 BC certainly grants some form of amnesty for actions taken before or during the rule of the Thirty. However, the scope of the amnesty is unclear. Waterfield,[3] among others, contends that the scope of the amnesty was quite limited, while many other scholars consider the amnesty comprehensive. For instance, Thomas R. Martin describes the amnesty as “general…under which all further charges and official recriminations concerning the [reign of] terror were forbidden.”[18] If the amnesty included all activity before 403 BC, it seems that we cannot trust Polycrates’ account. If the amnesty was actually more restricted, Polycrates’ account (or what we can glean from other sources discussing it) seems to be a more credible source. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/70 "2013-01-06T03:01:40Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Well, the essay is way too good for even an A in high school. And lacks citations, so it isn’t for college. It’s also too good for an A in college. You have a talent at this. Either that, or I didn’t check for plagiarism using Google. Our high school definitely pushed citations, too. Especially in AP classes. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/71 "2013-01-06T07:06:45Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > I said in this thread, [Alexander the Great was not Great](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15863533#post15863533) to expect a pit thread on Socrates’s Persecution, and here it is. Now I also said that I may decide to put it in Great Debates since I will be debating with anyone who disagrees, but I figured this will also involve a lot of hate and ranting towards those persecutors, so I decided to keep it in the BBQ Pit (Moderators, you can move this thread to “Great Debates” if you would like and I won’t be “unhappy”). If this gets moved to Great Debates, I will be unhappy. 99% of what we know about Socrates comes from his sycophantic student Plato and you are arguing from Plato’s position. That is not really a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Boods](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5e9695/32.png) [@Ms\_Boods](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Boods)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/72 "2013-01-06T10:29:31Z")
Besides, when it comes to getting an idea and getting things done, Archimedes is the man [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/73 "2013-01-06T16:32:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Now, now! This was the dude who had the chance to cornhole the beautiful young Alcibiades and passed it up! Of which Alcibiades later incredulously complained. Again, if [Plato’s account](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium_(Plato)) is to be trusted. Socrates may have had very good reason to pass up on banging the hottest dude in Athens. Alcibiades may have been a psychopath, making Socrates the earliest classical proponent of the maxim “stick not thy dick into the crazy.” ---
**Author:** ![bobkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobkitty)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/74 "2013-01-06T17:59:24Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > The reason that you’re getting a hell of a lot of snarky replies on here is that, for most of us, the fact that history is full of cruelty and injustice is _nothing fucking new_. I dare say it’s simpler than that. The OP is creating high-school-level essays and putting them in, of all places, the Pit.. and had designs on putting them in GD. Like there’s going to be some kind of grand debate, or like he’s proposing something new/that anyone who would bother to read wall-o-text doesn’t already know. News flash: there isn’t, and he’s not, so there’s nothing left to do but ignore or snark. I’m shocked that no one has stepped in and- instead of begging for a banning, which happens at least once per OP’s threads- suggested the OP start a blog where he can drop all these Grand Idea and Illuminations. Maybe if it gets popular enough he can use it as one of the 1001 Ways To Get Into MIT. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/75 "2013-01-06T18:53:56Z")
Guy taught Alcibiades, and look at what he went and did. Where did he learn such treason? Not from his father, who was a great statesman. No, his teacher, who inculcated in him an arrogance and a hatred for his homeland. Now if it were just Alcibiades, then perhaps such a thing could be excused, for perhaps Alcibiades’s actions came merely from a defect in his character. But he taught Critas, he taught Charmides, enemies of Athens both. And no wonder, for Socrates teaches a damnable doctrine! First, he denies the gods, saying that, instead of the gods of the city, he is inspired by a daimon of his own., but more than that, he denies morality. For, he says, one should reject the moral teachings of the city, and only accept as true that which he calls “reason”. The traditions of the city or the values of its people mean nothing to him. Instead he says that only he can judge what is right and wrong, and he seeks to teach his pupils the same, to develop their own morality, divorced from that of the city. These are the teachings of tyranny. They elevate one man over the rest, and encourage his followers to believe that it is their right to rule and dictate to the rest of us. Do you forget, Athens, the trial of the six admirals, and that it was Socrates alone who kept them from prosecution? Do you forget that he not only taught the Tyrants but that they took counsel from him? No, men of Athens, this man is guilty! He is a wicked and evil old man. Do your duty! ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/76 "2013-01-06T19:14:59Z")
I haven’t read the OP. Judging by some of the comments in this thread it’s doubtful many others did either. But I have something useful to contribute! Go me! [Top Chicago Litigators to Retry 2,400-Year-Old Socrates Case Before 7th Circuit’s Judge Posner](http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/chicago_legal_heavyweights_to_retry_2400-year-old_socrates_case_before_7th_/?utm_source=maestro&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email) ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/77 "2013-01-06T19:28:45Z")
And now for something completely different (read: more useless) [Freshman Term Paper Discovers Something Totally New About Silas Marner](http://www.theonion.com/articles/freshman-term-paper-discovers-something-totally-ne,1657/) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/78 "2013-01-06T19:36:40Z")
I have to agree with some historians that noticed how old Socrates was, IIUC he was older than 70 when the trial took place, imagine getting to that age in ancient times, not fun at all, chances are that he was close to death and it is very likely that Socrates did choose Suicide by Jury as a final “take that” to the city rulers. I would imagine that Socrates, out of all men of that day, would had been aware of what history would decide on who was going to be declared the villain in that case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/79 "2013-01-06T20:10:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I have to agree with some historians that noticed how old Socrates was, IIUC he was older than 70 when the trial took place, imagine getting to that age in ancient times, not fun at all, chances are that he was close to death and it is very likely that Socrates did choose Suicide by Jury as a final “take that” to the city rulers. > > I would imagine that Socrates, out of all men of that day, would had been aware of what history would decide on who was going to be declared the villain in that case. So, Socrates’ legendary “humility” was really a form of vanity? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/80 "2013-01-06T20:28:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > BTW, **Anonymous User,** if this subject interests you, you really should read the historical novel [_The Last of the Wine,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_of_the_Wine) by Mary Renault; Socrates is a main character and most of the other main characters are his pupils. And it’s a really good read, too. I’ll check it out. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=5)