# Socrates's Persecution was Unjust **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127 "2013-01-05T02:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/81 "2013-01-06T20:50:53Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Guy taught Alcibiades, and look at what he went and did. Where did he learn such treason? Not from his father, who was a great statesman. No, his teacher, who inculcated in him an arrogance and a hatred for his homeland. > > Now if it were just Alcibiades, then perhaps such a thing could be excused, for perhaps Alcibiades’s actions came merely from a defect in his character. But he taught Critas, he taught Charmides, enemies of Athens both. And no wonder, for Socrates teaches a damnable doctrine! > > First, he denies the gods, saying that, instead of the gods of the city, he is inspired by a daimon of his own., but more than that, he denies morality. For, he says, one should reject the moral teachings of the city, and only accept as true that which he calls “reason”. The traditions of the city or the values of its people mean nothing to him. Instead he says that only he can judge what is right and wrong, and he seeks to teach his pupils the same, to develop their own morality, divorced from that of the city. > > These are the teachings of tyranny. They elevate one man over the rest, and encourage his followers to believe that it is their right to rule and dictate to the rest of us. Do you forget, Athens, the trial of the six admirals, and that it was Socrates alone who kept them from prosecution? Do you forget that he not only taught the Tyrants but that they took counsel from him? > > No, men of Athens, this man is guilty! He is a wicked and evil old man. Do your duty! I enjoyed this post. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/82 "2013-01-06T20:57:16Z")
Executing wicked and evil old men is a very bad idea. If you are a wicked and evil _young_ man, what makes you think you will get any better? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/83 "2013-01-06T20:58:39Z")
The absolute worst travesty of the trial of Socrates was his completely asinine argument about why he wasn’t corrupting the youth\*. Never mind that the charge was dumb, but that doesn’t excuse his argument from being utterly laughable; I’m actually almost convinced that Socrates was deliberately trolling when he made it (assuming Plato’s account is accurate etc etc). - For the uninitiated, the gist of the argument is essentially that only a mentally ill person can intentionally take action which harms themselves. Corrupting the youth would harm society, and thus indirectly harm Socrates. Therefore, since he is clearly not mentally ill, he was not intentionally corrupting the youth. And if it wasn’t intentional, why are they punishing him and not re-educating him? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/84 "2013-01-06T21:19:57Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > I’ll check it out. Thanks. You’re welcome. And if Alexander the Great really interests you, which [apparently he does,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=677543) check out Renault’s [_Fire from Heaven_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_from_heaven) (about Alexander’s life before he was King) [_The Persian Boy_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Persian_Boy) (about Alexander conquering Persia) and [_Funeral Games_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funeral_Games_(novel)) (about the struggles of the [Diadochi,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diadochi) Alexander’s surviving generals, for supremacy after his death). Also [_The Mask of Apollo,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mask_of_Apollo) which bridges the period between the life of Socrates and the life of Alexander (Plato is a major character, and young Alexander makes a cameo appearance at the end). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/85 "2013-01-06T21:28:23Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I haven’t read the OP. Judging by some of the comments in this thread it’s doubtful many others did either. > > But I have something useful to contribute! Go me! > > [Top Chicago Litigators to Retry 2,400-Year-Old Socrates Case Before 7th Circuit’s Judge Posner](http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/chicago_legal_heavyweights_to_retry_2400-year-old_socrates_case_before_7th_/?utm_source=maestro&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=weekly_email) Hmm. If he’s acquitted . . . well, I guess they’ll have to dig him up. :o ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/86 "2013-01-06T21:51:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hmm. If he’s acquitted . . . well, I guess they’ll have to dig him up. :o Acquitting him is pretty easy in Ohio Corrupting the Youth: “Your honor, I’m not aware of any crime called or solely defined by ‘corrupting the youth’. Seriously, what does that even **mean**?” “Good point, charge dropped.” * * * Treason against Athens: “Your honor, Athens is not in our jurisdiction, we have no ability nor reason to try this man for treason against a state that this judicial system isn’t even a part of. Also, Athens itself is not a sovereign city-state anymore, rather being a city in a nation-state, so it’s kind of moot.” “Hmm… good point. Charge dropped.” * * * Blaspheming against the Gods: “Seriously, your honor? Separation of church and state. I can guarantee there’s no law he’s violating.” “… Huh. Charge dropped. Who the hell even accepted this case anyway? Tell the intern he’s fired.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/87 "2013-01-06T23:04:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hmm. If he’s acquitted . . . well, I guess they’ll have to dig him up. :o And, call in a Voodoo priest . . . ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/88 "2013-01-07T01:00:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And, call in a Voodoo priest . . . Weekend At Bernie’s 3: Socratezy Summer! ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/89 "2013-01-07T14:28:49Z")
I just requested the library for a book, “Conversations of Socrates” by Xenophon. **BrainGlutton** , I will get your book later on but for right now, I just want to read some primary source books written by Xenophon and Plato. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/90 "2013-01-07T14:41:47Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > I just requested the library for a book, “Conversations of Socrates” by Xenophon. **BrainGlutton** , I will get your book later on but for right now, I just want to read some primary source books written by Xenophon and Plato. Awesome. I also recommend checking out the [Loeb Classical Library](http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1031). Some of the translations are quite old-timey (or were, anyways, in the editions I read ten years ago), but that’s part of the charm. You get the original Greek (or Latin) text on the right, and an English translation on the left. Jolly good fun. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/91 "2013-01-07T15:32:34Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > I just requested the library for a book, “Conversations of Socrates” by Xenophon. **BrainGlutton** , I will get your book later on but for right now, I just want to read some primary source books written by Xenophon and Plato. Be careful with relying on Xenophon, at least WRT to Socrates’ philosophy. Xenophon was a friend and admirer of Socrates, but he was a plain soldier and no philosopher, and he paints such a portrait of him that at least one historian has remarked, “He never would have been condemned if he had been like that.” Bertrand Russell in his _A History of Western Philosophy_ wrote of Xenophon and Socrates (going from memory, here): “It has been said that Xenophon’s accounts of what Socrates are reliable, because he had not the wit to think of anything different. This is a most invalid line of argument. A stupid man’s account of what a clever man says is always inaccurate, because he subconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. I would rather be represented by my worst enemy among philosophers than by a friend ignorant of philosophy.” ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/92 "2013-01-07T21:52:05Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Yeah, I liked it, and being a student of Greek history from the Persian invasion to the death of Alexander, I’m familiar with the subject matter. For high school AP it’s a definite A. Also for my University professor if it had cites and no errors in grammar and spelling. I haven’t checked it for that. He was weird that way. Probably still is. > > For University history, sourcing is the whole point of the exercise. Preferably original sources. My recollection is that Plato is the only eyewitness of the trial to write about it. The other sources are secondary. > > Did Socrates get a bum deal? Sure. But it beats an obscure death, which he pretty clearly understood. The point is obvious that he got a bum deal. Don’t let that or the geezers here get you down stating the obvious. You’ve got to state the obvious before you can revolutionize the field. Oh sh\*t, I got an 86 on the essay. That brought my grade down all the way from a 95 to a 90 for this quarter bringing my final average down from a 95 to a 93. Really upset right now. On top of that (this is irrelevant), I sucked on the math test today - only an 83 bringing my average in that class from a 97.188 to a 94.821 (I’m not too upset about this). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/93 "2013-01-07T22:03:50Z")
Well, you can kiss your chances of getting into MIT goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/94 "2013-01-07T22:15:47Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Well, you can kiss your chances of getting into MIT goodbye. Are you actually serious? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/95 "2013-01-07T22:32:56Z")
Yes, I am. Dewey Finn Director of Admissions Massachusetts Institute of Technology Admissions Office 77 Massachusetts Ave, Room 10-100 Cambridge, MA 02139 ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/96 "2013-01-07T22:38:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Yes, I am. > > Dewey Finn > Director of Admissions > Massachusetts Institute of Technology > Admissions Office > 77 Massachusetts Ave, Room 10-100 > Cambridge, MA 02139 No, it’s Matt McGann. [http://web.mit.edu/officesdir/411411.shtml](http://web.mit.edu/officesdir/411411.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/97 "2013-01-07T22:41:30Z")
Do you think I post here under my real name? ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/98 "2013-01-07T22:43:11Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Do you think I post here under my real name? Well you said Dewey Finn above the address. Are you really Matt McGann? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/99 "2013-01-07T22:44:51Z")
Yes. Here’s my [homepage](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gullible). ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127/100 "2013-01-07T22:48:25Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Yes. Here’s my [homepage](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gullible). Haha, very funny. :rolleyes: I just get worried because you never know. You could have been an admissions officer. I was just really worried because my grades did drop. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/socratess-persecution-was-unjust/646127.md?page=6)