# Sodomy is constitutional - AND STROM THURMOND DIES!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696 "2003-06-27T03:50:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/341 "2003-06-30T19:52:20Z")
[quote] You’re mistating my point. I fully acknowledge that I do not share your experiences. Never said otherwise. I dispute the claim that your experiences grant you a privileged standpoint. This claim has been clearly made by gobear when he told Monty to get a clue because he didn’t know what it’s like to be torn out of bed by jackbooted thugs. Well, neither does gobear. [quote] A. I told **tars Tarkas** , not **Monty**. B. Well, I do know what it is like to be hassled by cops for sitting in a car and talking to a guy in a gay area and being called a “faggot”. But that was New Orleans in 1984, and I’m sure you will find some way of dismissing my experience C.The point tyou are mising is that only part of your bedroom activity is curtailed by an equal enforcement sodomy law, but everything I do is illegal. > [@](#): > > Are you particularly worried about this happening to you? You should worry more about meteorites. Even if you were tight and the chances are remote, the priciple that my existence as a gay man is declared illegal by the state is intolerable. > [@](#): > > Do I have to be gay to understand how bad it would suck to have police break into my house and arrest me for having sex? Luckily, thanksd to the Supremes, neither you nor I have to worry about that now. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/342 "2003-06-30T19:55:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mockingbird \* > \*\*If that was true, you wouldn’t bother to respond. \*\* Good point. You got me. I’m devastated. I admit it. Boy you really are good at judging others. You do it so well, so often. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/343 "2003-06-30T20:01:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m sure you don’t know what it’s like to be married and have a kid (or maybe you do, I dunno.) If I used that as a sledgehammer to claim privileged perspective on an issue, I’d be just as wrong as you are now. I am not using this as a “sledgehammer” as much as you might like to think I am. What I am saying is that this is something that you can’t experience and therefore can’t fully understand. No more, no less. I don’t know what it means to have a wife and child. Therefore, you are able to speak more authoritatively on that topic than I could ever hope to. You have never been stuck at an emergency room with your same-sex partner, faring for his life and safety and knowing that in the eyes of the law the person whom you love is a stranger to you. Therefore, I can speak more authoritatively to that subject than you. It is a simple statement of fact that you don’t and can’t know what it’s like to be gay and live not only under threat of arrest for having sex but as an unidicted criminal for having sex. I’m sorry to bust any bubbles you might have about this, but you don’t know and you can’t know. That is all I am saying and you’re blowing it up into a huge monster deal. > [@](#): > > That’s not true. You didn’t just attack my arguments. You attacked me personally. You called me names. You dared to tell me what I am. It’s character asassination, and it’s crappy. Oh _whatever_. I called you an asshole. You called **gobear** a hysteric. You think that because you didn’t type the word “hysteric” you didn’t call him one? > [@](#): > > I’ll ask you point blank: > > Are you particularly worried about this happening to you? It was something I thought about when I lived in Texas in the 80s, yes. I’ve been fortunate enough to live in free states most of my life but it was a concern when I wasn’t. I was also concerned about the idea that someone would use the law against me in other arenas which, hey, happened a lot to other people. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/344 "2003-06-30T20:36:54Z")
gobear: > [@](#): > > A. I told tars Tarkas, not Monty. Oh. > [@](#): > > B. Well, I do know what it is like to be hassled by cops for sitting in a car and talking to a guy in a gay area and being called a “faggot”. But that was New Orleans in 1984, and I’m sure you will find some way of dismissing my experience. Of course I’ll dismiss it. You know, that’s what I’m about. Actually I was in New Orleans in 1984. My girlfriend at the time used to make me go way way down Bourbon Street to the gay section (when you come to the Circle K, you’re where it’s gay,) because she said that’s where all the best bars and parties were at and that’s where at. Unfortunately for me, being something of a fool, I chose to spend most of the time standing around and posturing and trying not to have a good time so that I wouldn’t be mistaken for a gay man. In hindsight I wish I could have taken the stick out of my ass and just had fun. Anyway, that’s not the point. New Orleans police were some bad mothers under the best of situations, and more than once I’d seen them engage in openly and overtly hostile behavior towards gay people, so I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be in your shoes then. Is that dismissive enough? ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/345 "2003-06-30T21:16:33Z")
Wow, what a thread. I wasn’t even aware that he died. Thats what I get for going on vacation and not following the news. I will start by saying that I think that his views on blacks and gays was appalling and disgusting. I don’t think that anyone here so far has disagreed with that fact. He was a man filled with a combination of hate and ignorance. I am not sad at his passing. While he was alive though, I would not have wished death on him. I would have preferred that he eventually saw the error in his ways and changed his views. Obviously that didn’t happen. He will have to account for his actions in the afterlife, if there is such a thing. But my beliefs do not allow me to hate him, or Saddam, or OBL, or anyone. I see hatred as one of the worst traits that anyone can possess. It’s not that I don’t understand it. I can fully understand how a mother would hate someone who killed her child, for example, and want to dance on their grave. I can no more judge this mother, than I can the numerous gay people who have been a victim of the hatred spewed by the likes of Strom Thurmond. I just don’t see where being filled with hate can ever have a positive effect on anything. There has to be a better way to fight hatred than with more hatred. The man is gone. He can do no more harm. Now it would be better to focus on those who wish to carry on his “legacy”. Strom cannot be changed now. Maybe they can, or at the very least, maybe those with similar views to his will be eventually seen as they are. Maybe they will realize one day that if they continue to have the same views, they will no longer be voted for. This can all be accomplished without hatred. I also have to say that I am saddened by all of the name calling in this thread. Yes, I know it is the pit but I have seen rational discussions and debates occur in this forum and I don’t think that this is one of them. Can we not have a debate without everyone being called an asshole for their views? Lastly, in my opinion, **dalovindj** and **monty** have given the best reasons why hatred isn’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/346 "2003-06-30T21:38:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Scylla The whole point of the fucking case was that the Texas sodomy law did not apply to mixed-sex couples, idiot. Did you actually _read_ the case, or the opinions, or any of the hundreds of news stories or threads about the topic? The Texas law was _called_ the “Homosexual Conduct Law.” What would lead you to believe that straight people committing hetero-sodomy were at risk? \*\* Nitpick: Actually, although you’re right that the Texas law only applied to homosexuals, the “whole point of the fucking case” did not turn on that fact. The majority opinion invalidated all sodomy laws on due process grounds, overturning _Bowers_ in the process. Only O’Connor’s concurrence based on equal protection found the disparate treatment of homosexuals relative to heterosexuals to be a critical factor in the decision. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/347 "2003-06-30T22:19:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\ ***quixotic** - > > 1. the statute I linked to was state law, not local. But it’s current use is for plea bargaining generally, not for use on adult consensual activities.\*\* Huh. Weird. I wonder where CNN got their info from then. \*\* > [@](#): > > 1. Although there are other states which forbid any such activity and not just among same sex couples, it’s assumable that genital/mouth genital anus contact occurs with homosexual couples, and although possible with heterosexual couples, it’s not assumable. Thus, when a heterosexual couple is checking into a motel, it’s not assumable that they’d be breaking the law, but it is assumable should a homosexual couple do so.\*\* I’m not sure I follow this. If a clerk sees two people – I don’t care if it’s two men, two women, or a woman and a man – checking into a hotel, he’s going to automatically assume that the couple is going to have sex? And then he’s going to call the cops? I **really** don’t understand what you’re getting at. My point is that had the case happened in Virginia with a man and a woman engaged in sodomy, they would have been caught in the **same** actionable position as Lawrence and Garner were in in Texas. That’s not discrimination. A ridiculous law, certainly. But not a discriminatory one. Again, I’d like to reiterate, before I get called a homophobe by some foaming-at-the-mouth person (not that I’d mention any names) – there is CLEARLY discrimination against homosexuals in this country. I just feel that the sodomy laws are a pretty weak example of said discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/348 "2003-06-30T22:32:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Lastly, in my opinion, dalovindj and monty have given the best reasons why hatred isn’t necessary. Oh, it certainly isn’t necessary. Hashing it out over the Internet isn’t necessary either, if you want to get into it. I just can’t bring myself to see how it makes one the scum of the earth, either. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/349 "2003-06-30T22:35:15Z")
> [@](#): > > My point is that had the case happened in Virginia with a man and a woman engaged in sodomy, they would have been caught in the same actionable position as Lawrence and Garner were in in Texas. That’s not discrimination. A ridiculous law, certainly. But not a discriminatory one. Good point, but missing one crucial distinction: straight peopl do not regualrly engage in sodomy and their regular penis-in-vagina sex is perfectly legal. But gay people are criminals no matter what they do: lesbians eating pussy = sodomy; gay men sucking dick = sodomy; gay men fucking = sodomy. > [@](#): > > Again, I’d like to reiterate, before I get called a homophobe by some foaming-at-the-mouth person (not that I’d mention any names) – there is CLEARLY discrimination against homosexuals in this country. I just feel that the sodomy laws are a pretty weak example of said discrimination. Hey, I only foam at the mouth on certain issues. We can certainly disagree as we do here without rancor. Just don’t tell me I have to respect Strom Thurmond. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/350 "2003-06-30T22:36:51Z")
I mean, this fellow worked to put down hordes of people who had nothing to do with him. Someone tries to keep my brothers and sisters down, and he’s not supposed to get my back up? ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/351 "2003-06-30T22:40:08Z")
I don’t think that hatred makes someone the scum of the earth. I hope I didn’t imply that. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/352 "2003-06-30T22:49:39Z")
To elaborate, I don’t think that hatred alone necessarily makes someone scum. A victim who hates her rapist isn’t scum, in my opinion. Someone who hates the bigotry that Strom Thurman demonstrated isn’t scum either. It’s just that hatred doesn’t really get any of us anywhere, does it? Neither does celebrating someone’s death, IMO. I feel a sense of relief that one less bigot is out of office but that occurred before he died. I can’t bring myself to rejoice when someone dies. That doesn’t mean I will be sending a wreath. I would rather just move on to the next obstacle and consider Strom Thurman a force that no longer needs to be contended with. Nothing more, nothing less. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/353 "2003-06-30T22:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Good point, but missing one crucial distinction: straight peopl do not regualrly engage in sodomy and their regular penis-in-vagina sex is perfectly legal. > > But gay people are criminals no matter what they do: \*\* Mutual masterbation is sodomy? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/354 "2003-06-30T22:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Mutual masterbation is sodomy? I’m sure the fundies in government will find a way to make that definition stick. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/355 "2003-07-01T00:00:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **Good point, but missing one crucial distinction: straight peopl do not regualrly engage in sodomy and their regular penis-in-vagina sex is perfectly legal.** I’ll admit, I’m not 100% sure what the legal definition of “sodomy” is. If it’s **anything** involving genitals besides dick in pussy… then I engage in sodomy all of the time. I say again: I engage in sodomy _every time_ I have sex with my girlfriend. (And yes, she really appreciates it 😃 ) So I’d still be charged with sodomy in Virginia, in the same boat with all the gays in the state. \*\* > [@](#): > > But gay people are criminals no matter what they do: lesbians eating pussy = sodomy; gay men sucking dick = sodomy; gay men fucking = sodomy.\*\* I didn’t realize this was a competition. Regardless of who has more “ways” to get in trouble, the point is that we can _both_ get in trouble. (And, more to the point, the law is just dumb). \*\* > [@](#): > > Just don’t tell me I have to respect Strom Thurmond. \*\* Well, I’m not about to parse through seven+ pages of quotes, but I don’t recall seeing anyone saying that you HAVE to respect Strom Thurmond. I saw some people who wish that you (and others) had been able to rise above the baser instincts, instincts which Strom Thurmond **definitely** exemplified. I, personally, feel that you ( **gobear** ) have met the “burden of proof” _re_ not “dancing on Strom’s grave.” Others, not so much. But really, if I’m going to condemn anyone in this thread, it’s Strom. I almost feel like that’s implicit and given, and therefore needn’t be said, but I’ve seen you accuse others (mainly in the Bill Frist thread) of somehow _condoning_ Thurmond’s viewpoint, a ludicrous charge from which I’ll gladly dismiss myself by being as unambiguous as possible. The rest of you… eh. I can’t muster up more than a disapproving cluck of the tongue and a hippie-esque observation that hate only breeds hate. But I tell you all what – let’s coin a name for “celebrating” the death of another. I propose the **Phelps Test** , named after Fred Phelps. Some of you, it seems, have failed the Phelps Test. Better luck next time? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/356 "2003-07-01T00:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Muffin** _ > > Muffin shakes his head sadly, and walks away. I’m with you there. ☹ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **quixotic78** _ > > … there are (were?) only four states (Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Missouri) where homosexuals were _unfairly_ discriminated against, i.e., where gay sodomy is illegal but straight sodomy is legal. There are, however, NINE states where this is no such discrimination – including Virginia, the state where **gobear** resides. Keep in mind that previous courts have determined that even if those laws stated both _could_ be prosecuted, in most of those states they were only enacted against same-sex couples. Overwhelmingly these laws were anti-gay - I can only think of one instance off the top of my head that was an opposite-sex couple. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **matt\_mcl** _ > > I mean, this fellow worked to put down hordes of people who had nothing to do with him. Someone tries to keep my brothers and sisters down, and he’s not supposed to get my back up? Nope. Regardless of the hate, bigotry and discrimination this man enacted into the law of the land where we live, we are to rise above and give him the basic respect afforded to every human being, even when he showed none for anyone he didn’t approve of. And in other news, none of us are Ghandi, Christ or Martin Luther King, Jr. Film at eleven. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/357 "2003-07-01T01:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Nope. Regardless of the hate, bigotry and discrimination this man enacted into the law of the land where we live, we are to rise above and give him the basic respect afforded to every human being, even when he showed none for anyone he didn’t approve of. Yep. And really, if you aren’t even going to strive for this, or in fact aren’t even going to admit that it is the ideal, then what use were Gandhi, Christ, or Martin Luther King, Jr? As for all the comparisons to Saddam or Usama, I can honestly say that I do not wish any evil on them. I don’t wish them to hell, and I don’t wish them to be tortured. Is it that hard to believe that regular human beings can give basic human respect to everyone? You are acting like it is something only the greatest among us should even _hope_ to accomplish. But I think it is something everyone should strive for, and you would be surprised how many would succeed. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/358 "2003-07-01T01:32:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Yep. And really, if you aren’t even going to strive for this, or in fact aren’t even going to admit that it is the ideal, then what use were Gandhi, Christ, or Martin Luther King, Jr? Well, two were shot and one was crucified, so I wouldn’t exactly call them good role models. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/359 "2003-07-01T01:36:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\* You should worry more about meteorites. > > \*\* You keep saying this, but the statistic seems highly suspicous to me. I can’t prove it, and I wonder if anyone even knows how to put the formula together (I paid no attention in Stats). Anyway, my real point is that the two aren’t analogous and here’s why: With meteorites, there is no human control as to how and when or whom/what it hits; discrimination is completely within human control and it’s targeted, thus we know exactly how, when and who. In other words: we can stop discrimination. It absolutely should be that a person would be more afraid of meteorites, but your citation and the responses here proves that is not the case. And while I’m at it–I’m trying to figure out what stake you have in this. It seems you should have given up ages ago, but you keep reiterating and, if I’m reading your posts right, you seem to be getting more shrill in tone. And then you introduce this idea of “special” and it seems like it’s getting awful close to a discussion of the scary “special rights” argument. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/360 "2003-07-01T01:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, two were shot and one was crucified, so I wouldn’t exactly call them good role models. Right. So if affording everyone basic human respect is wrong and gets you killed, then I suppose a _good_ role model would be someone who withholds basic human respect from his enemies and lives to a ripe old age. May I suggest Strom Thurmond? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696.md?page=19)