# Sodomy is constitutional - AND STROM THURMOND DIES!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2003, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696 "2003-06-27T03:50:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@Aslan\_of\_Narnia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aslan_of_Narnia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/101 "2003-06-27T20:53:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*actually, you’re worse, since your target can no longer defend himself. \*\* And how would he defend himself if he were alive? It’s not like he posts to message boards to defend himself, that’s the work for his sympathizers. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/102 "2003-06-27T20:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Adultry laws deal with partners who are married, but not to each other. Single adult people can have all the consensual sex they want without fear of government intrusion now. > > But, then, are there even laws still in effect that make adultry a criminial offense? If there are, then they should be struck down too, on the principle that it’s not the government’s place to act as a moral enforcer. \*\* not true. in the state of Michigan, there’s a law re: ‘seduction of an unmarried woman’. > [@](#): > > THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT) > Act 328 of 1931 > > 750.532 Seduction; punishment. > Sec. 532. > > Punishment—Any man who shall seduce and debauch any unmarried woman shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 5 years or by fine of not more than 2,500 dollars; but no prosecution shall be commenced under this section after 1 year from the time of committing the offense. [here](http://michiganlegislature.org/mileg.asp?page=getObject&objName=mcl-750-532&userid=) Yes it’s been used recently. (I know some one on probation for this) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/103 "2003-06-27T20:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dalovindj \* > > > [@](#): > > > > By taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing over it, he is superior. ~ Francis Bacon > > Just because the man was morally reprehensible does not justify other morally reprehensible acts (like celebrating someone’s death). Thank you for both parts of this posting, dalovindj. I do believe there are more than a few threads within recent memory whose posters need to realize these two facts. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/104 "2003-06-27T21:01:06Z")
How is being gleeful that Thurmond is dead any different than someone like him rejoicing when someone gets AIDS and dies? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/105 "2003-06-27T21:01:48Z")
I am amazed that law is still on the books and still enforced, **wring**. What if the woman seduces the man? What if she’s already debauched? How do they prove “seduction”? That law is incomprehensible to me. I think _Lawrence_ will make that law suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/106 "2003-06-27T21:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*There is such a law in Wisconsin. 944.16 and it’s a class E felony. Whether it’s constitutional in light of this decision is now an open question. \*\* Ditto in New York, where it’s a Class B misdemeanor. [Cite](http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?cl=82&a=64). Though you’d have to look pretty hard to find a recent prosecution… ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/107 "2003-06-27T21:10:41Z")
> [@](#): > > _aaslatten said:_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Apos_ > > I dunno: you people are being awful glib about the death of man who, though having a checkered past of bigotry, changed a lot over the years: [even rethinking his position on sodomy near the end of his life.](http://www.theonion.com/onion3112/stromchange.html) > > Boo-freaking-hoo **WHOOOOOSSHHH!** ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/108 "2003-06-27T21:11:58Z")
It’s there all right. It was used in a plea bargain in the case that I"m aware of. I couldn’t find a legal definition of debauching, wondering if I had been so debauched lately, ya know. and the law does not provide a remedy for the male who’s been debauched by a female. At least in Michigan. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/109 "2003-06-27T22:10:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*Please tell me you are not a lawyer. \*\* Well, I am. Do you think US Supreme Court justices have received extensive training in foreign legal systems? I can’t imagine they have, since it’s not part of the American law school curriculum. When they attempt to interpret foreign law, they’ve done it badly, hence the amicus briefs that attempt to correct their interpretation in _Bowers_. QUOTE]\*Originally posted by E-Sabbath \* **Also, chula has some very odd ideas, as far as I can tell, about what international laws mean to the US and what decisions of international courts mean. Remember, we _do_ still have the death penalty for people under 18.** [/QUOTE] Odd? Treaties are the supreme law of the land, according to the US Constitution. The United States has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child, so it would be difficult to argue that it is legally bound not to execute minors. With respect to this case, if other countries agree that consensual sexual activity by homosexuals is part of the rights contained in, for example, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, then those interpretations are relevant to determining the legality of anti-sodomy laws. Does that seem odd? The US Supreme Court also said a long time ago in the _Paquete Habana_ case that customary international law, i.e., international law that the US has not agreed to by signing a treaty, is also part of US law. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/110 "2003-06-27T22:10:50Z")
“Help! Help! I’m being debauched!” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/111 "2003-06-27T22:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*I am amazed that law is still on the books and still enforced, **wring**. \*\* It’s probably mainly only used as part of an “and balloons” strategy. You know, it doesn’t matter how much fun you’re having, everything’s more fun with balloons. Likewise, you’re probably not going to see a charge of seduction by itself, but on top of a charge of rape, statuatory rape, or sexual assualt, or as a plea bargain down from a charge like that. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/112 "2003-06-27T23:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **lieu** _ > > What I’m curious about though, wouldn’t the law have applied to heterosexual couples as well? In some of the few states where the sodomy laws were still on the books, they were never enforced (but still caused a maelstrom every time someone tried to repeal them); in some, they were equally applied (when they bothered) to both heterosexual and homosexual couples (and remember, “sodomy” in most states referred to both anal and oral sex); but there were a fair number - _including Texas_ - who either only enforced the laws with same-sex couples, or the laws _specifically stated_ they only applied to same-sex couples. [Here is the NGLTF map of sodomy laws in the U.S.](http://www.ngltf.org/downloads/sodomymap.pdf) Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/113 "2003-06-27T23:44:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > \*\*To clarify, all of Europe has a civil law system, based on Roman law, while the United States and former British colonies derived from the British common law system. US Supreme Court justices are not competent to interpret civil law. \*\* The USSC is not competent to hear cases from Louisiana? Sorry, I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/114 "2003-06-28T00:22:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*I almost feel like keeping a list of the people who are appalled at the idea of being glad Strom is dead and searching to see if I can find any posts that are, say, happy about bombing Afghanistan or invading Iraq or the execution of a convicted murderer. > > Almost. > > \*\* I know. I was thinking as I read that this thread could really come back to haunt some people should the corpse of bin Laden or Hussein ever surface, or their death be confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/115 "2003-06-28T00:24:26Z")
Funny story to share. According to legend, when the Civil Rights Bill of 1964 was passed, someone asked Lyndon Johnson what he was going to do next. He said “I’m going to drive down to N. Carolina and watch Strom Thurmond start kissing every black ass he can find!” Probably apocryphal. Who cares. One story I know is true: when I was a young lad in Waco, Tx, (c. 1964) our Methodist minister caused quite a stir when his sermon subject was “If you find out that Heaven is integrated, do you still want to go?” ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/116 "2003-06-28T00:38:27Z")
> [@](#): > > When Jesse Helms and Ronald Reagan finally drop over, be prepared to respect me even less. When Jesse Helms keels over, you’ll find me at the head of the parade, throwing condoms to the crowd and kissing Taye Diggs from the “Fry in Hell, You Evil Sonuvabitch!” float. Oddly, though, I won’t be doing much celebrating at Reagan’s death just because, as far as I can tell, he is already dead. Everything that he was is already departed. All that will happen on that day is that his corpse will stop breathing. I don’t much give a rat’s ass about the boohooers who want us to respect the dead. Where was his respect for us when he was living? He did his best to mainta’n gay people’s despised status in this society, a position he never repented. As has been said, good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/117 "2003-06-28T01:06:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\*The USSC is not competent to hear cases from Louisiana? Sorry, I don’t buy it. \*\* Not to disagree but to expand, **Muffin** – or from Puerto Rico. **JRDelirious** has noted several times lately where the Commonwealth is rewriting its Civil Law Code, with one purpose therein to bring it into line with SCotUS decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/118 "2003-06-28T01:09:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*don’t much give a rat’s ass about the boohooers who want us to respect the dead. Where was his respect for us when he was living? He did his best to mainta’n gay people’s despised status in this society, a position he never repented. > \*\* You are doing a fine enough job yourself of maintaining gay peoples’ despised status by acting like this. Have fun setting back your cause 100 years, i hope that’s worth the joy you feel now that some old guy is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/119 "2003-06-28T01:20:58Z")
Um, so why again are we supposed to have anything but utter contempt for Strom Thurmond? That was the way I felt about him while he was alive, wouldn’t it be hypocritical of me to be anything but glad the old fucker is dead? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696/120 "2003-06-28T01:22:31Z")
The amazing thing to me is that the news of the ruling was playing on CNN when I arrived at La Guardia yesterday evening. (I’m in town with my mom, who came to accept several journalism awards on my dad’s behalf.) _C’est une belle journée, je vais me coucher, Une si belle journée souveraine…_ Congratulations to US Queers on your ruling! Good thing you’ve finally caught up to the Pearson leadership 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sodomy-is-constitutional-and-strom-thurmond-dies/184696.md?page=7)