# Soft winter wheat. What now? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 25, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238 "2008-06-25T22:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/1 "2008-06-25T22:37:05Z")
Barely got past this [OP](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9932148&postcount=1) and stopped reading at the start of the flame-fest, so perhaps it’s already been answered there. But I am curious about what what happens with soft winter wheat harvest now? I mean if the wheat is still _there_, why can’t someone _else_ make it? Perfect niche market opportunity or can’t be done and why? 😕 And yes, I openly admit my ignorance on this whole matter, thus my question. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/2 "2008-06-26T02:12:03Z")
The funny thing about food is that it starts out as a living thing. You can’t recreate San Fransisco sourdough - it has to come from the original batch. You really can tell a difference between Coca Cola made with cane sugar vs. high fructose corn syrup. So maybe there’s just some combination of the building, the equipment, the storage facilities, etc. that makes White Lily flour produced in Knoxville different enough from any other flour produced to the same specs anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/3 "2008-06-26T02:26:13Z")
[QUOTE=kunilou] The funny thing about food is that it starts out as a living thing. You can’t recreate San Fransisco sourdough - it has to come from the original batch. [/quote] . If you can back this up with some scientific reasoning, I’d be much obliged. > [@kunilou](#): > > You really can tell a difference between Coca Cola made with cane sugar vs. high fructose corn syrup. That makes sense to me. You’ve changed a major ingredient. > [@kunilou](#): > > So maybe there’s just some combination of the building, the equipment, the storage facilities, etc. that makes White Lily flour produced in Knoxville different enough from any other flour produced to the same specs anywhere else. The building couldn’t logically make much difference. Perhaps the average humidity factor might, but nothing else. The equipment probably doesn’t have much to do with it. Storage facilities, doubtful. What makes the most sense to me is that Smuckers, in their new mill, isn’t triple sifting the flour, isn’t using the _exact_ blend of wheat. Isn’t using the small part of the kernel that White Lily was. Isn’t chlorinating it in the same, exact manner. Something along those lines. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/4 "2008-06-26T03:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] . If you can back this up with some scientific reasoning, I’d be much obliged. That makes sense to me. You’ve changed a major ingredient. . [/QUOTE] The reasoning is that bacteria in the starter provides the sour taste. Presumably, no 2 starters will have the same bacteria cocktail, so they will taste different. I believe this might be true for different regions of the world, but doubt that anyone could really tell much a difference between 2 separate loaves of bread baked from two different starters cultivated from the same area. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/5 "2008-06-26T03:46:07Z")
I just use King Arthur flour and bypass all the hoo-rah. Some people just get too…into things. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/6 "2008-06-26T04:11:03Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] I just use King Arthur flour and bypass all the hoo-rah. Some people just get too…into things. [/QUOTE] I think there are relatively few people who are going to be inconvenienced in any significant way. Yes, a couple million people will need to spend some time tweaking some recipes. I can see why’d they’d be miffed. The people who are serious amateur (or professional) bakers who have spent many, many hours of trial and error so that they may be able to consistently turn out a quality product will really be screwed when faced with new protein levels. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/7 "2008-06-26T05:07:18Z")
I’m kind of a flour snob myself when I can be; the flour in Egypt was lousy so I actually imported US unbleached all-purpose flour, bread flour, and Swansdown cake flour. However, it is certainly possible to get by with different flour than you are accustomed to, although you have to understand the science and do some experimenting in order to produce the results you want. Shirley Corriher discusses the matter of flour at length in [Cookwise](http://www.amazon.com/Cookwise-Secrets-Revealed-Shirley-Corriher/dp/0688102298/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214456741&sr=1-1) and I believe she even mentions White Lily as producing different results from other flours. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/8 "2008-06-26T07:42:46Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] The reasoning is that bacteria in the starter provides the sour taste. Presumably, no 2 starters will have the same bacteria cocktail, so they will taste different. I believe this might be true for different regions of the world, but doubt that anyone could really tell much a difference between 2 separate loaves of bread baked from two different starters cultivated from the same area. [/QUOTE] Famous sourdough starters may have been in cultivation so long that they effectively contain distinct, domesticated strains of yeasts and bacteria, so that would make them very hard to reproduce. I’m sure they _could be_ reproduced, by closely analysing the strains of microorganisms present, then creating a similar population, but based on what founder organisms? They may not exist in the wild any more, or in other sourdough cultures - so you’d have to take them from the culture you were analysing - which is not recreating it, it’s merely perpetuating it - business as usual. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/9 "2008-06-26T07:53:36Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] …What makes the most sense to me is that Smuckers, in their new mill, isn’t triple sifting the flour, isn’t using the _exact_ blend of wheat. Isn’t using the small part of the kernel that White Lily was. Isn’t chlorinating it in the same, exact manner. Something along those lines [/QUOTE] _Logically_, and again, without knowing anything about flour mills, that’s pretty much the same conclusion that I came to when I read about the product. I just don’t see the flaw in the thinking. I went to their website’s [FAQ](http://www.whitelily.com/FAQs.aspx), and as opposed to any number of food & beverage products such as **kunilou’s** own Coca-Cola’s “secret formula\*” or Big Mac’s “secret ingredient\*”, they are fairly straight forward in describing what it is they do. \*Which, in these two examples if I am not mistaken, are not so much secrets as marketing strategies and patents. From link: > [@](#): > > **What is soft wheat flour?** > > Soft winter wheat is a variety of wheat that has a low protein content and low gluten content. It is the type of flour recommended for cakes, biscuits, and quick breads. White Lily flour is lower in protein content because the soft wheat is pure-- not blended with hard wheat. Hard wheat has a much higher protein content and gluten content There is more there about the product, but at no point do they bring-up that there’s something ‘secret’ about it. IOW, unless that website is now altered by the new owners the question remains. * * * [QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] The reasoning is that bacteria in the starter provides the sour taste. Presumably, no 2 starters will have the same bacteria cocktail, so they will taste different. I believe this might be true for different regions of the world, but doubt that anyone could really tell much a difference between 2 separate loaves of bread baked from two different starters cultivated from the same area. [/QUOTE] You’ve conflated two different quotes from **samclem** blending them into one. And although I believe I understand where you’re going with this, I don’t understand how it’s relevant to my original query. Again, _exact same grain and process_, same result, no? [QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] …Yes, a couple million people will need to spend some time tweaking some recipes. I can see why’d they’d be miffed. The people who are serious amateur (or professional) bakers who have spent many, many hours of trial and error so that they may be able to consistently turn out a quality product will really be screwed when faced with new protein levels. [/QUOTE] Why should they have to “tweak”? Wouldn’t a potential two million costumer base be enough to warrant an cost/profit analysis for a start-up? Especially as the product appears to have a very loyal base. * * * [QUOTE=CairoCarol] I’m kind of a flour snob myself when I can be; the flour in Egypt was lousy so I actually imported US unbleached all-purpose flour, bread flour, and Swansdown cake flour. However, it is certainly possible to get by with different flour than you are accustomed to, although you have to understand the science and do some experimenting in order to produce the results you want. Shirley Corriher discusses the matter of flour at length in [Cookwise](http://www.amazon.com/Cookwise-Secrets-Revealed-Shirley-Corriher/dp/0688102298/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214456741&sr=1-1) and I believe she even mentions White Lily as producing different results from other flours. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the link, **Carol**. But I’m not planning to become an expert on flour, so no book for me. Although if the potential to replicate this particular one is there, I may want to invest a few dollars in such an enterprise. 🙂 Still puzzled, because it appears it’s all about the brand’s _name_, not the end-product. Thanks all the same. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/10 "2008-06-26T12:37:36Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] . If you can back this up with some scientific reasoning, I’d be much obliged. [/QUOTE] I’m a (former) home brewer. I can make Budweiser-_style_ beer. I can even make it taste better than the original (not hard), but I can’t make it taste the _same_. And neither could a rival commercial outfit. Just don’t have that yeast strain. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/11 "2008-06-26T13:12:35Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] You’ve conflated two different quotes from **samclem** blending them into one. And although I believe I understand where you’re going with this, I don’t understand how it’s relevant to my original query. [/QUOTE] I absolutely have not conflated anything. He was asking a question based on a specific statement that he was replying to. It may not have been directly related to your exact OP question, but it was related to a tangent brought up as a hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/12 "2008-06-26T13:18:01Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Still puzzled, because it appears it’s all about the brand’s _name_, not the end-product. Thanks all the same. [/QUOTE] It is about the end product, since it looks as though it will be unavailable after June. The fact that it cold be available doesn’t mean that it still will be. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2008, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soft-winter-wheat-what-now/454238/13 "2008-06-26T13:19:51Z")
Too many replies.