# Solar Energy question? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 21, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914 "2023-12-21T04:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/21 "2023-12-22T21:08:10Z")
Did you see the picture of the one in de middle of a 8 lane highway? If memory serves in Korea. That one is my favorite greenwashing BS. The bike path is unusable without hearing protection (cars are stupid loud), the solar panels will break down and will not be serviceable because you must shut down 2 lanes of the highway AND the bike path. It is possibly the dumbest shit I’ve ever seen. Found it: [![](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenoptimistic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fkorea-bikelane.jpg.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d2d06fcf0334f024deba5cac57ed830c833a6070c69e8650405a6c9187e21c1f&ipo=images) ](https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.greenoptimistic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F04%2Fkorea-bikelane.jpg.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=d2d06fcf0334f024deba5cac57ed830c833a6070c69e8650405a6c9187e21c1f&ipo=images) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/22 "2023-12-22T22:27:06Z")
All of that kind of crap is really about how to have solar without land acquisition cost. Land is all but free in most of where the sun is plentiful. And in lots of places where it’s not. Put the solar where land is (nearly) free and sunlight is plentiful. Not right at the point of use. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/23 "2023-12-22T23:23:52Z")
Very true, you can ship electricity fast and cheap once you have the infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/24 "2023-12-23T03:20:53Z")
Actually, a lot of those stupid projects were just mechanisms for chasing the trillions of ‘green’ investment dollars and subsidies floating around during the zero interest rate era. Rather than extracting energy from the sun, they extract dollars from taxpayers and investors, hurting real projects that might actually be useful. That was also the purpose of all those hyperloop companies and most of the companies claiming to be bringing electric aircraft to market, along with real idiocy like the Playpump and the Water Seer. See also: carbon offsets, which are mostly a greenwashing scam. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/25 "2023-12-23T04:17:43Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > The bike path is unusable without hearing protection (cars are stupid loud), the solar panels will break down and will not be serviceable because you must shut down 2 lanes of the highway AND the bike path. Plus, you need special access ramps or tunnels to even get to the bike path at all, and can’t get on or off it except at those access points. If you’re going to put a bike path in the path of a freeway, put it off to the side, maybe with ten meters or so of greenspace in between. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/26 "2023-12-23T08:39:47Z")
Anywhere but right next to a stupid loud highway, but then you cannot seek the PR for your Solar! Bike! Path!; look at us being green! I hate that real money is being taken from energy transition budgets and is siphoned to PR crap like that. You could have isolated 100s of houses. Built a tram/metro whatever line for that kind of cash. Now you have a terrible bikepath and 3 headlines— look at us being green! ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/27 "2023-12-23T14:22:09Z")
I sometimes worry that windmills will turn into modern day tar pits. They kill birds and other birds fly into to eat them talking them out. I wonder if any of the local predators have turned the windfarm fields into scavenging grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/28 "2023-12-23T14:26:15Z")
They occasionally kill birds. You know what else kills birds? Everything. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/29 "2023-12-23T14:48:48Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I wonder if any of the local predators have turned the windfarm fields into scavenging grounds. Predators aren’t scavengers. Scavengers aren’t predators. Yes, there are some opportunists who will do the opposite when times are hard, but not many. As @chronos says, it’s not like there are piles of bird carcasses accumulating beneath every windmill in the land. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/30 "2023-12-23T14:48:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They occasionally kill birds. You know what else kills birds? Everything. I hope the bladeless wind turbines replace them. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/31 "2023-12-23T15:21:37Z")
> **[Buildings are killing up to 1bn birds a year in US, scientists estimate](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/07/how-many-birds-killed-by-skyscrapers-american-cities-report)** > > New report ranks deadliest cities for feathered travelers, who often collide with glass-covered or illuminated buildings ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/32 "2023-12-23T15:51:04Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > [Buildings are killing up to 1bn birds a year in US, scientists estimate | Birds | The Guardian](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/07/how-many-birds-killed-by-skyscrapers-american-cities-report) That is easy to believe, when I was raising racing pigeons I would lose about 30% of my new birds to the telephone lines. Their 1st week of flying was the most dangerous, after that it almost never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/33 "2023-12-23T17:10:12Z")
Reductio ad absurdum aside, windmills (the modern kind) are a serious threat to birds and other wildlife. And it’s not even the moving blades that are the killer in many cases: Wood grouse have been shown to die from hitting the statiionary, upright part of the mill, apparently because the off-white vertical feature mimics a corridor in the forest cover. Bat mortality has shot up in windmill areas in Central Europe etc., as bats migrate in nighttime at windmill propeller heights. The noise emitted by the moving blades has increased chick mortality by 50 % in certain bird species, as it masks critical communication between the chicks and the adults. Owls, which use acute hearing for hunting, have left the windmill areas for the same reason. Some waterfowl species have had to abandon their wintering grounds due to windmill noise, leading to increased mortality, in a sea of losses of habitat. Heck, even earthworm numbers drop dramatically with the introduction of windmills, due to vibration and infrasound pollution. When that happens, ecosystems start to crumble, from the bottom up. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/34 "2023-12-23T18:11:52Z")
Cite for any of that? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/35 "2023-12-23T18:19:10Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > Heck, even earthworm numbers drop dramatically with the introduction of windmills, due to vibration and infrasound pollution. In North America, that may be a good thing. The earthworm is not native to NA but rather an invasive species, hitching a ride on cattle brought over by early European settlers. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/36 "2023-12-23T18:22:31Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > In North America, that may be a good thing. The earthworm is not native to NA but rather an invasive species, hitching a ride on cattle brought over by early European settlers. I know this is true but I find it so odd, I wonder if we had other types of worms? Worms of some kind are found nearly everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/37 "2023-12-23T18:35:12Z")
The above skimmage was based on a review article from Dec. 2023, as part of an ongoing study by Natural Resources Finland. Many of the individual studies featured were from USA, though: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320723004834?via%3Dihub](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320723004834?via%3Dihub) As part of my job I have surveyed a number of windmill sites pre-construction. Every single one of those remote, pristine, windy hillsides had ample wood grouse (spp.) and other species, that were then wiped out locally, simply by replacing the wilderness with concrete and maintenance roads. That’s before the windmills _did_ anything to the wildlife, which is plenty. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914/38 "2023-12-23T23:04:37Z")
The problem, as others have said, is that skyscrapers are tall and thin. Simple math- the amount of solar power available to one floor of a skyscraper is the height of the floor times the width of the building. Total roof area gets divided by the number of floors - the taller it is the worse the math. Let’s assume its oriented diagonally to north-south so that one side gets the morning sun, the other the afternoon sun, largest crossection facing south-ish. Then reduce power by the angle of the sun (say, about 45° in NYC area depending on season) and then again because of the angle of the solar panels to directly south. Plus, the lower-most floors may not get sunlight as also mentioned. So now, what’s the building consume? Lights, A/C, computers etc. share of elevators (and amplifiers for elevator music). A/C or heat can be mitigated by insulation, and the solar panels will reduce the need for A/C too… I hope nobody is driving their EV to work and hoping to plug in. Perhaps long and narrow with the long edge facing south is more ideal, but usually real estate determines possible shape. And… that blocks out other buildings even more. Short and flat seems to be better suited for solar independence. Maybe they could build a curved building like that one in London that melts stuff on the sidewalks, and use the concentrated power to run a steam boiler. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solar-energy-question/994914.md?page=1)