# Soldier \[Murdered and Possibly\] Beheaded in public street in London **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040 "2013-05-22T17:12:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/21 "2013-05-22T19:40:47Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Not only that, but apparently passersby were engaging in conversation with the suspected killer, still holding the knife: [pic](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-two-shot-in-police-incident-live-coverage#block-519d1730e4b0e3928886144e) From the [Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-two-shot-in-police-incident-live-coverage#block-519d1730e4b0e3928886144e) > [@](#): > > Ben Quinn has been speaking to people in Woolwich. > > Joe Tallant, 20, a local resident who witnessed the attack described how a friend’s mother comforted the dying victim. He claimed that the attackers told her ‘no man is coming near this body’ as\*\* they asked onlookers to take photographs of them. > \*\* > “It was like they wanted to be famous or something but in a stupid way,” he said. > > He added when the police came, the two men walked towards the officers and a female officer shot them. My bolding. So now I’m thinking that when the man with a knife asks you to take his picture you do. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/22 "2013-05-22T20:21:11Z")
The part that I found so striking yet so typical of the Jihadi mentality was that the wannabee Shahid who did this felt the need to publicly apologize for “women” having to watch this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/23 "2013-05-22T20:30:47Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The part that I found so striking yet so typical of the Jihadi mentality was that the wannabee Shahid who did this felt the need to publicly apologize for “women” having to watch this. Then it’s fitting that a woman shot him. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/24 "2013-05-22T20:39:22Z")
Here’s the video of the killer speaking: [- YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXU1I-vR8Sw) ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/25 "2013-05-22T21:46:53Z")
And now those animal right wingers the English Defence League have descended on the area to march. Scum. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/26 "2013-05-22T21:55:09Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > Not only that, but apparently passersby were engaging in conversation with the suspected killer, still holding the knife: [pic](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-two-shot-in-police-incident-live-coverage#block-519d1730e4b0e3928886144e) Your link has moved on, as it’s a rolling blog, but I suspect this is what you mean: > **[Mum talked down Woolwich terrorists who told her: 'We want to start a war in...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html)** > > Exclusive: A cub scout leader confronted terrorists just seconds after they had beheaded a soldier asking them to hand over their weapons and warning them: "It is only you versus many people, you are going to lose." That is one brave, calm and collected woman. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/27 "2013-05-22T22:02:06Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > I think it’s mobile phone footage. Bizarre world we live in in which people hold up their phones rather than getting the hell away. Expect, within the year, an action-movie scene wherein a bad guy (or maybe even a good guy) shoots some gawper right in the iPhone. You read it here first. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/28 "2013-05-22T22:41:11Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Your link has moved on, as it’s a rolling blog, but I suspect this is what you mean: > > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10074881/Mum-talked-down-Woolwich-terrorists-who-told-her-We-want-to-start-a-war-in-London-tonight.html) > > That is one brave, calm and collected woman. This picture, along with some of the footage happening in the background of the clip with the guy with the bloody cleaver is so surreal to me. The apparently relaxed body language of the woman seeming to calmly interact with the knife-wielding guy like she was asking him for directions. Hand in her pockets, chill. And again the body language of the woman who was laying down in the street along side the victim in the video…I just could not reconcile what I saw with what I knew to have been happening around them. At first I thought that the women in the street with the victim were somehow involved, or that the person in the street was someone other than the man who died, maybe someone with only minor injuries. They all seemed so relaxed to be both a) in the presence of a severely hacked up body and b) within a few feet of the two armed men walking around who were apparently responsible for the hacking. It is still so difficult for me to reconcile. I started wondering all sorts of odd things like whether there are just major cultural differences in how your average Brit appears when in the shock of a traumatic experience vs your average American, and other bizarre ponderings that I just don’t ever find myself thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/29 "2013-05-22T22:44:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Then it’s fitting that a woman shot him. Oh wow, if true that really is fitting and will probably be unbelievably humiliating for him. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/30 "2013-05-22T22:48:05Z")
> [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](#): > > And now those animal right wingers the English Defence League have descended on the area to march. Scum. Assholes. Why am I not surprised those racist dickheads would try to exploit this tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/31 "2013-05-22T22:55:15Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > This picture, along with some of the footage happening in the background of the clip with the guy with the bloody cleaver is so surreal to me. The apparently relaxed body language of the woman seeming to calmly interact with the knife-wielding guy like she was asking him for directions. Hand in her pockets, chill. And again the body language of the woman who was laying down in the street along side the victim in the video…I just could not reconcile what I saw with what I knew to have been happening around them. > > At first I thought that the women in the street with the victim were somehow involved, or that the person in the street was someone other than the man who died, maybe someone with only minor injuries. They all seemed so relaxed to be both a) in the presence of a severely hacked up body and b) within a few feet of the two armed men walking around who were apparently responsible for the hacking. > > It is still so difficult for me to reconcile. I started wondering all sorts of odd things like whether there are just major cultural differences in how your average Brit appears when in the shock of a traumatic experience vs your average American, and other bizarre ponderings that I just don’t ever find myself thinking. I’m British and I found it all quite strange and unnatural in the same ways you did. I’m not saying I’d expect the exact same reactions here as in the USA, but I wouldn’t expect this. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/32 "2013-05-22T23:15:33Z")
> [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](#): > > It is still so difficult for me to reconcile. I started wondering all sorts of odd things like whether there are just major cultural differences in how your average Brit appears when in the shock of a traumatic experience vs your average American, and other bizarre ponderings that I just don’t ever find myself thinking. I think it’s fair to say that pretty much everyone, at the scene or not, is scratching their heads about this whole thing. This guy’s tweets, as an eyewitness: [http://storify.com/mashable/bystander-apparently-livetweets-london-attack](http://storify.com/mashable/bystander-apparently-livetweets-london-attack) were posted very early on. He’s got a way with words. I’m very far away from being a South London Grime MC as well, but you’ll get the jist of what he’s saying as well. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/33 "2013-05-22T23:16:58Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m British and I found it all quite strange and unnatural in the same ways you did. I’m not saying I’d expect the exact same reactions here as in the USA, but I wouldn’t expect this. ISTM that the unexpected behavior of the onlookers is directly tied to the unexpected behavior of the perpetrators. They were relatively calm and non-threatening, inviting people to film them, and apparently waiting (much too long!) for the police to arrive so they could get on with being shot. Had the attackers behaved as you would have expected them to behave, I have no doubt that the onlookers would have behaved correspondingly. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/34 "2013-05-23T02:17:38Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > ISTM that the unexpected behavior of the onlookers is directly tied to the unexpected behavior of the perpetrators. They were relatively calm and non-threatening, inviting people to film them, and apparently waiting (much too long!) for the police to arrive so they could get on with being shot. > > Had the attackers behaved as you would have expected them to behave, I have no doubt that the onlookers would have behaved correspondingly. All the witness accounts make it seem almost like performance art rather than an actual crime. If not for the statements by various authorities, I would still be thinking it was some kind of prank or something. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/35 "2013-05-23T02:31:58Z")
[Here’s](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account) a first person account from one of the women who spoke to the attackers. She kept her head remarkably well. I’m in awe. She had been a Brownie (little girl scout) leader and seems to have adopted the same kind of calm manner she would have displayed to some childish crisis. > [@](#): > > Then a black guy with a black hat and a revolver in one hand and a cleaver in the other came over. He was very excited and he told me not to get close to the body. I didn’t really feel anything. I was not scared because he was not drunk, he was not on drugs. He was normal. I could speak to him and he wanted to speak and that’s what we did. She also said there was no sign of any attempt to remove the victim’s head. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/36 "2013-05-23T02:40:31Z")
Between the US way of capturing them and sending them to a tropical island and the English one of just shooting them I prefer the English one. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/37 "2013-05-23T02:51:43Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > Between the US way of capturing them and sending them to a tropical island and the English one of just shooting them I prefer the English one. :dubious: AFAIK, the US has never sent anyone (who was apprehended on US soil) to Gitmo for a crime perpetrated on US soil. And they’ve shot plenty, including just today, [a knife-wielding suspect (with no gun) with ties to the Boston bombers,](http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/22/justice/florida-fbi-shooting-boston/index.html) while he was being interrogated. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/38 "2013-05-23T02:55:54Z")
Oh for the love of God, can we ignore the silly nationalist comparisons between the British and the Americans. Besides, its obvious who’s better. There are 40 million Irish in the US and they’ve been taught their place while the UK can’t even teach a 600,000 how to behave. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/39 "2013-05-23T03:01:49Z")
Actually I was just making fun of some of the earlier posts. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/40 "2013-05-23T03:03:25Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > [Here’s](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/22/woolwich-first-person-account) a first person account from one of the women who spoke to the attackers. She kept her head remarkably well. I’m in awe. She had been a Brownie (little girl scout) leader and seems to have adopted the same kind of calm manner she would have displayed to some childish crisis. …gosh, so very British, and I mean that as a compliment. Tried to calm a murderer down, apologised for having to hope on a bus and leave, and then peeved the bus dropped her in the wrong place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040.md?page=3)