# Soldier \[Murdered and Possibly\] Beheaded in public street in London **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040 "2013-05-22T17:12:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/61 "2013-05-23T12:20:08Z")
Black is not the issue here. It is the potential islamist terrorist angle that is giving it traction. If the idiots who did this had been white, brown or purple, the coverage would have been the same. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/62 "2013-05-23T12:24:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Black is not the issue here. It is the potential islamist terrorist angle that is giving it traction. If the idiots who did this had been white, brown or purple, the coverage would have been the same. I don’t think it would have done. My article makes the case in point: a white person did it, and it wasn’t anywhere near as much broadcast in the news. I recognise fully that the security services should track down any roots in Islamic extremism, but there have been a lot of aspersions against Islam in general as if this is typical of Muslims. Nothing new granted, but I just wanted it out there. I’ll get back in my box now. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/63 "2013-05-23T12:29:33Z")
This isn’t a base in a foreign country. This is a British soldier, in civilian clothes, outside of a British army base in the middle of London. I don’t think the US Military recommends buddy-time going off-base in New York City or Los Angeles. To answer a further question, less hero-worship of the military in the UK, but still respect. It was folly for COBRA to recommend troops not wear uniforms off-base; I’d personally have recommended going the other way, and having all soldiers (current and former) bust out their kit in a show of solidarity. The threat here isn’t islamist organised terror, it’s lone-wolf stuff by self-radicalised Jihadis that is nearly impossible to stop and really quite scary. Especially for me, being an American in England and thus a target for extremists. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/64 "2013-05-23T12:39:55Z")
I shan’t link to it because, as I stated earlier, I despise bigotry. Yep, some of the assclowns nut-jobs are in full foam over this. They’re bitching about Obama not preventing it (yeah, I don’t get that either) because Obama’s Muslim. Wow. The ignorance is practically palpable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/65 "2013-05-23T13:29:31Z")
That has to be one of the weirder title edits I have seen for a bit. How can a beheading not be a murder? If they killed some abortionist, we could call a spade a spade. But, they were Muslims, so we have to pussyfoot around the obvious. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/66 "2013-05-23T13:39:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That has to be one of the weirder title edits I have seen for a bit. How can a beheading not be a murder? You’re reading it the wrong way around - he was definitely murdered, possibly beheaded. They hit him with a car first, then hacked at him with machetes. The beheading part has not been confirmed (and may not be true). > [@](#): > > If they killed some abortionist, we could call a spade a spade. But, they were Muslims, so we have to pussyfoot around the obvious. > > Regards, > Shodan What, that he was murdered? What are we pussyfooting around? ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/67 "2013-05-23T13:44:39Z")
> [@Staggerlee](#): > > But add the ‘homegrown terrorist’ element as their justification, and the Prime Minister flies back to the UK for an emergency COBRA meeting. Wait, is COBRA real? I thought that was the villain in G.I. Joe? The previous posters were talking about G.I. Joe, right? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/68 "2013-05-23T13:49:23Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Wait, is COBRA real? I thought that was the villain in G.I. Joe? The previous posters were talking about G.I. Joe, right? It’s an acronym. > **[Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_Office_Briefing_Room)** > > The Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms (COBR) are meeting rooms in the Cabinet Office in London. These rooms are used for committees which co-ordinate the actions of government bodies in response to national or regional crises, or during overseas events with major implications for the UK. It is sometimes referred to as COBRA. > The Cabinet Office Briefing Rooms are a group of meeting rooms in the Cabinet Office at 70 Whitehall in London, often used for different committees which co-ordinate the acti... It’s basically the UK equivalent of the White House Situation Room ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/69 "2013-05-23T13:53:22Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The beheading part has not been confirmed (and may not be true). Ingrid Loyau-Kennet in Guardian interview: _“I couldn’t see the man’s face but I could see no evidence that suggested someone had tried to cut off his head.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/70 "2013-05-23T14:10:51Z")
> [@AaronX](#): > > Wait, is COBRA real? I thought that was the villain in G.I. Joe? The previous posters were talking about G.I. Joe, right? In the UK it stands for Cabinet Office briefing room A. Meetings are convened there convened as part of the civil contingencies committee, which plans government responses in times of emergency. The make-up of the Cobra committee depends entirely on the nature of the issue, as the name refers to the location of the meeting, not a particular set of people. We neither know nor care from “GI Joe” which, is why I and presumably others ignored the earlier stupid comments. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/71 "2013-05-23T14:14:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If they killed some abortionist, we could call a spade a spade. But, they were Muslims, so we have to pussyfoot around the obvious. Ah, the good old days, when we could call people who kill abortion doctors Christian extremists in mainstream news reports and didn’t worry about calling Muslim extremists who killed people Muslim extremists in mainstream news reports… Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/72 "2013-05-23T14:17:16Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > In the UK it stands for Cabinet Office briefing room A. Meetings are convened there convened as part of the civil contingencies committee, which plans government responses in times of emergency. The make-up of the Cobra committee depends entirely on the nature of the issue, as the name refers to the location of the meeting, not a particular set of people. > > We neither know nor care from “GI Joe” which, is why I and presumably others ignored the earlier stupid comments. I see, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/73 "2013-05-23T14:19:17Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > While not wishing to belittle the tragedy of the death of this soldier, and I hope that those responsible suffer the full consequences of the law, dare I say that I think the public reaction has been a tad shrill? > > I say this, given that just two weeks ago an elderly Pakistani man was [killed with a knife](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police) in a suspected racist attack, and it was barely reported. > > It disgusts me that as soon as a black person does this, everyone loses their minds! That attack is unsolved with no perp in hand. It “may have been racially motivated”, but all we know for sure is that someone stabbed an elderly man to death. In contrast, in the attack referenced by this thread, we have graphic images of the murderers right after committing the murder, which is reasonably unusual. Moreover, they were gunned down dramatically right at the scene. And we know what they claim about their motives, based on what they said. It is hardly a mystery why the latter creates more news than the former. Race has nothing to do with it. The latter is simply more newsworthy, and would be no matter what races were involved. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/74 "2013-05-23T15:11:56Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > While not wishing to belittle the tragedy of the death of this soldier, and I hope that those responsible suffer the full consequences of the law, dare I say that I think the public reaction has been a tad shrill? > > I say this, given that just two weeks ago an elderly Pakistani man was [killed with a knife](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police) in a suspected racist attack, and it was barely reported. > > It disgusts me that as soon as a black person does this, everyone loses their minds! It puzzles me that you don’t find a video confession of a man literally dripping in blood declaring a religious war on the same par as an anonymous murder with no leads. One story has international recognition, the other does not. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/75 "2013-05-23T15:50:32Z")
Do British police now carry firearms? I wonder if the long response time involved their obtaining weapons. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/76 "2013-05-23T15:58:24Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Do British police now carry firearms? > I wonder if the long response time involved their obtaining weapons. No, normal beat officers do not routinely carry firearms. We have special armed response units for that. There has been a lot of questioning in the media about the apparently slow response time. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/77 "2013-05-23T16:05:32Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Do British police now carry firearms? > I wonder if the long response time involved their obtaining weapons. There are specialist firearms units. I’m not sure the response time was all that long though. The incident was over 14 minutes after the first 999 call was received. From the Guardians live blog here: > **[London attack: police make two further arrests after Woolwich killing](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-latest-developments-live)** > > • Victim identified as Lee Rigby• Cameron: it was attack on Britain and 'betrayal of Islam'• PM seems to say suspects were known to security services• Two men under arrest in hospital• Attack prompts fears of backlash against British... The relevant part is: > [@](#): > > ``` > 14.20 "We first received a 999 call from the public at 14:20hrs stating a man was being attacked". Then "further 999 calls stated that the attackers were in possession of a gun" > > 14.24 Armed officers ordered to scene > > 14.29 First unarmed officers arrive: "We had officers at the scene within 9 minutes of receiving that first 999 call." > > 14.34 "Firearms officers were there and dealing with the incident 10 minutes after they were assigned, 14 minutes after the first call to the Met." > > ``` I wonder if the video footage is from that first 9 minutes? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/78 "2013-05-23T16:12:06Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > There has been a lot of questioning in the media about the apparently slow response time. Especially as there was an armed unit less than 1.5 miles away at Greenwich Crown Court. On Review - if it was only 14 minutes from first call to armed response as the Guardian reports, then that isn’t unreasonable IMO. Initial reports were over 20 minutes of the two attackers wandering around the street and interacting with the unarmed public before armed police arrived on scene. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Imp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58956e/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Imp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Imp)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/79 "2013-05-23T17:06:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Neither is South Korea, contrary to certain intimations from a not very nice country in the region. Yet, the US military personnel are, as mentioned, strongly advised to use the buddy system when venturing out. I was just curious if the UK had a similar advice for their folks given how not a few people seem to view military folk. I know post 63 has touched on this already, but South Korea and US soldiers is not an apt analogy here. This was (as far as we know) an attack on a UK soldier on home UK soil. So are you still saying that he should have had a “buddy”, in the same way a US soldier leaving a US base in the US would be advised to be? ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040/80 "2013-05-23T18:19:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That has to be one of the weirder title edits I have seen for a bit. How can a beheading not be a murder? > > If they killed some abortionist, we could call a spade a spade. But, they were Muslims, so we have to pussyfoot around the obvious. > > Regards, > Shodan Wow, way to read your personal (off-topic) boogeymen into a perfectly innocent and accurate title edit. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-murdered-and-possibly-beheaded-in-public-street-in-london/659040.md?page=5)