# Soldier worship **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216 "2013-08-14T15:30:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/41 "2013-08-14T20:43:47Z")
> [@AnaMen](#): > > I feel pity for them and respect that many probably signed up with the best of intentions, but I don’t want anyone killed on my behalf ever, so why would I thank them? When you sign up for the military, you’re agreeing to be part of a machine that kills innocent people and calls it “collateral damage.” Anyone that agrees to do this gets no gratitude from me. This is how I see it too. Either someone took their talents and energy and the life they had and used it to pick up a gun and go to another country willing to kill other people, or it was the best of the bad options they had (such as, join the military or go to jail). I wish there was a way more folks could peacefully “serve their country” but as it is, I can’t honor the choices these people have made. Maybe if they weren’t willing to “serve”, the government would have to rethink getting involved on all these wars. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/42 "2013-08-14T20:54:48Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > This is how I see it too. Either someone took their talents and energy and the life they had and used it to pick up a gun and go to another country willing to kill other people, or it was the best of the bad options they had (such as, join the military or go to jail). I wish there was a way more folks could peacefully “serve their country” but as it is, I can’t honor the choices these people have made. Maybe if they weren’t willing to “serve”, the government would have to rethink getting involved on all these wars. Regardless of how important diplomacy has become in the recent centuries there will always be a need to have soldiers to fight and kill for their country, because people are going to come to a loggerheads with their enemies as well as allies. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/43 "2013-08-14T21:51:38Z")
The worship of members of the armed forces is actually pretty superficial. If we really cared about them they’d be paid better, nobody would ever think about messing with their retirement and they’d get adequate medical attention. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/44 "2013-08-14T22:25:19Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Are you really such a ferocious asshole? > Say your house catches fire, and the fire department comes- you won’t say thank you, because they are just doing their job?Seriously, what is wrong with you to think that is appropriate? Are you a sociopath? Not if it turns out that there was actually no fire, but just that the fire chief used smoke and mirrors to make it look like a fire in order to overcompensate for the fact that his father, also a former fire chief, failed to put out a fire at the same address about ten years ago, as well as enrich the deputy fire chief’s cronies who sell fire trucks, hoses, etc., especially when his decision diverted resources and attention from an actual fire a few blocks away. But I digress. Let’s get back to discussing the military.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/45 "2013-08-14T23:48:35Z")
Oh, look. Another thread where the Dope makes sure everyone knows it thinks soldiers do an ordinary job for adequate pay while pretending that teachers _aren’t_ worshiped in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/46 "2013-08-14T23:53:03Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > Please explain how soldiers as a whole are getting treated by their employer. I assume you mean that they are treated poorly > > Oh, here we go again. > > Junior enlised men have no expenses. They get their clothes, food, and lodging. ALL of their money is spending money, so enouch with the whining about how much/little they get paid. Except for the married ones with children, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/47 "2013-08-14T23:56:59Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > I wasn’t aware that any of the soldiers in the American military of the 21st century were conscripted. In the US, conscription was called “the Draft.” I’m not sure about WWI, but they drafted men to serve in WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. I was drafted and most of the men in my recruit company, AIT class, and regiment were drafted. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/48 "2013-08-15T00:23:29Z")
WW1 was a large draft in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/49 "2013-08-15T00:57:04Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > This is the only place I’ve found online where I can get away with saying that I do not get warm fuzzy feelings when I see soldiers coming home, because I know what awaits a huge percentage of them and their families in the years and decades to come: drug addiction, domestic violence, homelessness, untreated PTSD, suicide, unemployment, etc… > > I also believe that in most cases, people who are deployed overseas should just get divorced, because they’re going to do that anyway when they return. I’ve been deployed 5 times, 4 of those in the Middle East and in various places in Africa. All in the business of using force. Deployments are highly disruptive to families, no question. The things you wrote do occur, but it is not most cases. Some, but not most. The VA is making solid efforts to reach out and help the folks coming home. A few days ago I received a Military Veteran Program Baseline Survey package from the VA as a result of returning home 8 months ago. I will complete it and send it in. Credit where credit is due. The systems in place to help us are only successful if they are used by the people who need them. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/50 "2013-08-15T01:24:31Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Oh, look. Another thread where the Dope makes sure everyone knows it thinks soldiers do an ordinary job for adequate pay while pretending that teachers _aren’t_ worshiped in this country. You must live in a different country than I do. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/51 "2013-08-15T02:50:44Z")
> [@Longshanks](#): > > Regardless of how important diplomacy has become in the recent centuries there will always be a need to have soldiers to fight and kill for their country, because people are going to come to a loggerheads with their enemies as well as allies. A girl can dream. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/52 "2013-08-15T03:16:00Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > You won’t say that when WWIII starts. 😃 > > I do agree they are important jobs, as are a lot of jobs (mine not so much), but I still don’t believe they are quite up there with the soldier. Why? What makes soldiers more important than teachers and trash collectors? Without teachers people wouldn’t be educated and the economy would fail. Without sanitation, public health would plummet and disease would skyrocket. The absence of either profession would literally result in increased mortality. Being a soldier is more DANGEROUS perhaps. (Maybe. Sanitation is a dangerous job.) But I don’t see anyone lining up coal miners, cab drivers, electrical workers or roofers at sporting events to get ovations, though all are extremely dangerous jobs. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/53 "2013-08-15T03:21:43Z")
Threadjack: Some years back, a local newspaper columnist addressed the fact that garbagemen made more money than schoolteachers, and wondered why. He got a LOT of feedback, including a letter (this was pre-e-mail) from a married couple. She was a teacher, and he was a garbageman - who had a master’s degree. They had moved to this city for her job, and he was having trouble finding a job in his field, so he took the garbageman job just because they needed the money, and was totally shocked to quickly discover that he loved it! :eek: No, they aren’t paid more because they’re men; they’re paid more because it’s filthy, dangerous work, and there’s a lot more to know than people think. There’s a LOT more to it than riding on the back of a truck and throwing things in. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/54 "2013-08-15T03:23:38Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > while pretending that teachers _aren’t_ worshiped in this country. Which country would that be? 'cause I teach here in America and I’d like to find out whether my certificate will be accepted in this magical wonderland you’re talking about or whether I’ll need to do some coursework prior to moving there. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/55 "2013-08-15T03:30:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Being a soldier is more DANGEROUS perhaps. (Maybe. Sanitation is a dangerous job.) But I don’t see anyone lining up coal miners, cab drivers, electrical workers or roofers at sporting events to get ovations, though all are extremely dangerous jobs. Some stats - the [most dangerous industry sector](http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0010.pdf) to work in is Agriculture, Forestry, Fishing and Hunting - fatal occupational injuries of 24.9 per 100K in 2011. Next most dangerous is Mining - 15.9. [Compare this to the military](https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dcas/pages/report_number_serve.xhtml): the rate was 88 in 2010. And that includes all the desk jobs, stateside, etc. Although if you break it down further, fishers and related fishing workers, as well as loggers, show higher fatal injury rates than the military. Wow, those are dangerous jobs. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/56 "2013-08-15T03:33:44Z")
[QUOTE=aNewLeaf] - Dulce et decorum est, pro patria mori\*, as they say. [/QUOTE] And they say it just to assuage the grieving. Besides at best it’s only half true, it may be honorable but it is NOT “sweet”. It’s a bitter price to be paid. Having worn the uniform once (don’t thank me, I was a lousy soldier) I can dig that’s it’s the other SOB or me, but I don’t have to like it or be eager for it. > [@Sicks Ate](#): > > Vietnam was controversial duh. And it can be argued that it was a bad choice. Same commitment of society to the war effort, but the war itself was unpopular. You may not have known anybody directly involved. And still, the WWII generation held power and viewed military service as something that just happened. So on one hand you have the establishment who isn’t willing to worship soldiers simply for being soldiers, and you have the other side who is willing to vilify soldiers for being soldiers. Call it a draw Hmmm… I’d call it a Double Whammy. That generation of vets got it from both sides, at the very least becoming aware that both sides (the WW2-vet leadership and the counterculture homefront) thought little of their situation. It was a sense of national shame about that which led to a general reversal by the time Gulf War I came along in 1991: at the top leaders like Powell and Schwarzkopf and Bush Sr. who believed the forces were owed a mission with a clear, achievable and measurable beginning, end, goal and exit strategy and not being wasted in a quagmire spiral to prove the boss had a bigger one; and a public willing to acknowledge a hard nasty job well done by mostly good people. That would have been a fine level at which to settle. [QUOTE=SenorBeef] Essentially they’re trying to deflect criticisms over stupid wars by saying “Why don’t you support the troops?” and similarly juvenile things. It’s a core part of the new jingo/“patriot” mentality that the right wing is drumming up. Make the common soldier into an unquestionable hero, and then make criticism of war policy equivalent to criticism of those soldiers, and you shut down discussion and rational thought. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=madmonk28] I’m torn, I do think that vets who were sent back to multiple tours of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan deserve to be acknowledged, but I also think that America has been overly militarized and I’m troubled that the military seems to be the only national institution held in high regard. It reminds me of the mindset of a country like Egypt. […] I don’t begrudge these people getting a round of applause and some free baseball tickets, but I resent that I’m being manipulated with these living props to tacity endorse a failed foreing policy and a military institution that is breathtakingly corrupt at the top[…] [/QUOTE] This is also one thing that worries me, the use of the respect and honor for those who served as an instrument of manipulation by the institutional establishment. Creating a compliance out of a sort of “Civilian Guilt” feeling, that you should not dare question anything martial lest it be seen as not supporting the troops. The creation of situations in which the mentality arises that “If we now pull out or agree to a settlement, or stand down, it means those who fought died in vain”, and that sort of mentality can lead to keep feeding meatgrinders. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I want veterans to get their entitlements and health care, soldiers to get their pay and good treatment, and the US not to throw away their lives and the lives of whatever enemy they’ve chosen. > [@Odesio](#): > > The worship of members of the armed forces is actually pretty superficial. If we really cared about them they’d be paid better, nobody would ever think about messing with their retirement and they’d get adequate medical attention. Yes. Idolatrous adulation just for show is not what those who serve deserve. They took the risk in the name of the country and they deserve for the country to act like it’s worth something - something that can improve their actual lives. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/57 "2013-08-15T03:39:51Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > If all those who blow off the soldier got paid & treated by their employer the way the soldier is, I wonder if it would be OK with them to trash talk them the way the soldier is treated here and by the OP? _Of course_ it’s trash talk to have an unpopular opinion. How dare you all! > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Oh, look. Another thread where the Dope makes sure everyone knows it thinks soldiers do an ordinary job for adequate pay while pretending that teachers _aren’t_ worshiped in this country. Utopia huh? Ha ha ha ha ha! This is the funniest thing I’ve read on the Dope today. Can you do better tomorrow? ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/58 "2013-08-15T05:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Longshanks \*\* > I wasn’t aware that any of the soldiers in the American military of the 21st century were conscripted. > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > In the US, conscription was called “the Draft.” I’m not sure about WWI, but they drafted men to serve in WWII, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War. I was drafted and most of the men in my recruit company, AIT class, and regiment were drafted. \*\*Ranger Jeff, \*\*I don’t want to read too much snarkiness into your post, but I got the strong impression by your I’ll-translate-the-big-words-so-you-can-understand-me tone that you are trying to tell **Longshanks** that he is wrong. We’ll he’s not. He said 21st century. No U.S. draft in the 21st century. (One more thing. You know what? I’ll bet that **Longshanks** – and just about everybody else on the SDMB – knew that conscription = draft. Jeez.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/59 "2013-08-15T07:28:59Z")
> [@stuyguy](#): > > \*\*Ranger Jeff, \*\*I don’t want to read too much snarkiness into your post, but I got the strong impression by your I’ll-translate-the-big-words-so-you-can-understand-me tone that you are trying to tell **Longshanks** that he is wrong. We’ll he’s not. He said 21st century. No U.S. draft in the 21st century. > > (One more thing. You know what? I’ll bet that **Longshanks** – and just about everybody else on the SDMB – knew that conscription = draft. Jeez.) I realized that about 1 hour after I hit the send button. So sorry about that, Longshanks. How about this then; a lot of people remember how Nam vets were vilified when they returned home. The American Legion and VFW guys from WWI, II and Korea thought they were a bunch of drug using, long haired whiners who listened to that Rock and Roll noise. They were willing to let the Nam Vets pay dues and fees, but didn’t want anything else to do with them. And their peer group thought they were murderers. And Hollywood said they were drug addicts a hair-trigger away from going psychopathic. So now folks are trying to be a bit more sensitive to the Persian Gulf war vets. The pendulum just swings two ways. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216/60 "2013-08-15T08:48:07Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > - While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”, > But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind, > There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind, > O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.\* > > [From “Tommy” by Rudyard Kipling](http://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/1999/03/tommy-rudyard-kipling.html) If a non-American might make a comment… since discovering Internet message boards, with the large US presence on them, a few years ago; I’ve often felt a bit taken aback by the extreme veneration expressed by many people in the US, toward their armed forces. I take on board, the reasons suggested for why this is so; to me, though, it feels strange – and sometimes slightly unsettling – in a context of a country which, by global standards, is a well-informed liberal democracy. I’d like to think that we in the UK (pace Mr. Kipling and his friend Tommy, above) are, consistently, appreciative of what those in our armed forces do for us; but here, those sentiments tend to be tacitly “understood”, rather than trumpeted from the housetops. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldier-worship/666216.md?page=4)