As a suspicious bastich, I’d follow the money, and ask who’s getting kickbacks from Interceptor OTV and not getting kickbacks from Dragon Skin…
Nah, that’s not how it works. If a soldier’s commander gives permission, even unspoken permission - if the CO knew his soldiers were buying armor and didn’t tell them to stop - then said soldier’s ass is covered.
This is an interesting question. Typically I won’t use my military experience to “prove a point” but I find it relevant for the whole body-armor debate.
First, simply because newer body armor could better prevent bullets penetrating the soldier’s body does not necessarily mean that body armor would save all the lives being mentioned. If we suited up our soldiers in bomb-squad gear it’d be difficult to kill them with small arms fire. It would also be difficult (actually impossible) for them to properly function in an infantry role, and in fact the extreme limitation of their mobility could ultimately bring about more death. Because they would basically be sitting ducks, although very well armored ones.
Many people who served in the military will attest to the fact that enlisted infantrymen actually shrugged off some of the protection they were given. Men under my command were told multiple times to leave their ceramic plates in, but I was their CO, not god. I couldn’t watch them 24/7 and I know some of them disobeyed that order.
I have to wonder to what effect the current infantymen would put this newer armor. If it’s too heavy I guarantee you a great many of them will find ways to make it lighter, whether it decreases their safety or not (and all things considered, it might not even decrease their safety, mobility is of great value in war.)
That’s my opinion on the whole “newer armor” situation. I don’t know enough about whatever replacement is being proposed for the interceptor body armor to speak about it with certainty, but in general unless there has been a technological breakthrough you can’t get more protection without adding weight. And there has been some breakthroughs. The interceptor system is about 9 lbs. lighter than what I wore for most of my career and it is said to give more protection.
There’s two other issues at hand that I feel are possibly being unfairly blamed on Republicans. One is the problem of some soldiers not being issued body armor, and the other is the orders to not use commercially made body armor.
The first is what I view as a fault in the system itself. I dealt with a lot of bullshit in my days in the Army and it was not at all uncommon for me to get 2x as much of one thing that we needed and 1/2 as much of another. Some of it is just the inherent inefficiency and bureaucratic mess that is pervasive throughout some parts of the U.S. armed forces. And I served for over 20 years, and for a large portion of those there were democrat congresses and democrat Presidents. I saw little change at all based on who was in power.
Some of it is the politicized process that can often see the Pentagon spending money on something that no one in the military wants or needs simply because it makes some congressman (and said congressman’s fat cat lobbyist) happy. That’s one of the things I think needs to be changed, I think the political nature that is present when the DoD makes its business decisions needs to be removed in some way. I wouldn’t mind if it was made a crime for congressmen to even involve themselves in the process.
The DoD has an enormous budget and always has, but it can only spend so much before it has no more to spend. Every dollar spent on bullshit systems never actually wanted or needed is less money that can be spent on things soldiers in the field actually do need.
The third matter, the orders to not use commercial systems, is entirely what I view as a flaw within the military itself. There’s three ways to do things in the Army, for example; the right way, the wrong way, and the Army Way ™. Just guess which way things typically got done :smack:. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if the justification for this in the mind of whatever officer issued the order was as simple as, “We didn’t approve it, so it can’t be permitted.” That’s really how a lot of people think, and a lot of times that’s how the service actually seems to be structured to behave.
[QUOTE=UncleBeer]
Gee, I wonder where these soldiers are getting the idea that the armor they are being issued is insufficient. Any ideas?
Is this a sick marketing pitch being made by Dragon Skin? First I’ve heard of them, and the web page linked to has only 5 articles, and 2 of them are against OTV.
If it is true, it’s pretty disgusting and I hope someone in Congress squeezes someone’s balls until the command is lifted. I definately heard of the complaints on OTV “fully loaded” inhibiting movement. So I suspect that a lot of soldiers will leave the side and larger back plates back at base. But for the moment, a lot of them don’t have a choice. The larger plates haven’t hit the field in large numbers yet and the side plates have yet to show up at all. All things being equal, the soldier should get to choose.
Noooo! That’s what killed them in Black Hawk Down!!!
Erek
Heh, Black Hawk Down the movie isn’t pure non-fiction. I’ve read the book and it’s actually pretty good but I can’t remember if the book ever actually talked about the situation you saw in the movie. In the movie a soldier takes out his rear ceramic plate prior to going out saying that “only coward’s get shot in the back.” While I won’t say it’s impossible, I am doubtful that any modern day soldier would actually think that way. But again, not everyone in the Army (or any large organization) operates with all their nuts and bolts.
I do think the bitching I heard about the weight of the old body armor was without much merit. People taking out plates because the armor weighs 25 lbs? You’re in the military, dammit, be tougher. But again I’m 6’5" and weigh 225, a lot of people in the military are leaner, scrawnier guys so I’m guessing 25 lbs may have been a bigger deal to them.
Hey, you’re that big a target, you need those plates.
Exactly. Thank you, Daniel.
No, that’s not the point. Well, I mean it is a valid point, but it ain’t the one I’m contending. You said that body armor was not being issued; your own link falsifies this portion of your claim.
I’ve got some damned good ideas. So many, in fact, I don’t really need anymore. If you find yourself lacking in this respect, I suggest you visit that other thread linked by Lute Skywatcher. If you’re confused with the issue I’m raising here, please review my remarks immediately above.
Sadly, I think that both of you are on to something.
The soldiers raising the stink are Special Operations types. These people live, breathe, and eat the fine art of effectively wreaking death and destruction upon the enemy while coming back alive to do it again another day (a dead “Hero” just leaves you a slot to fill in your TO&E). I think that their opinion of effective combat body armor should count for lot.
If the Snake Eaters say that DragonSkin is the shizznit, it’s as good as Gospel to me.
And since the Powers That Be continue to wring their hands and “study in committee” the entire Body Armor Issue (its effectiveness, and its notable lack upon the bodies of our men and women in uniform in harm’s way), I think that that alone is worthy of some kick-ass Congressional Hearings and the Heads Upon Pikes of an aircraft carrier-sized boatload of Generals, and possibly some lengthy prison sentences should “financial irregularities” come to light regarding said General’s bank accounts and the disbursements made by a certain manufacturer and supplier of body armor for our armed forces.
Let me hijack this a bit and go back to the OP.
Yea, it’s bureaucratic assholery of the first degree on part of the military. But I guarantee that the first family they deny benefits to will go straight to their congressman and it’ll be all over the press before sundown. Something like this will turn into a very hot political potato very quickly.
I’m not sure if this is still relavent, but my husband (female) cousin who is in the Army ( reserves now) enrolled to paratrooper jump school.
They had to supply their own boots. The army did not. Everywhere she looked around the course/place, there were soldiers hobbling about on crutches.
So, she contacted her mom, who contacted her brother ( retired German Army with a son active in German Army) and said " We need boots. Send some over."
The cousin received several pair of boots in a variety of sizes and they were wunderbar. So much so, she ended up selling the extra pairs that didn’t fit to others.
Just thought I would share.
:dubious:
Is this one of those “Don’t ask, don’t tell” things?
While stationed in Germany, we Tankers routinely availed ourselves of the absolutely fantastic Tanker Boots (mine are 20 y/o and still going strong!) available over there. Beat the U.S. Army crap hands down.
They were completely unauthorized, and everyone, from Armor Division Commanding Generals down to Privates right outta Basic bought 'em and wore 'em.
Is it ok to speak in conversational tones like EVER? I mean I DID correct myself and all. I didn’t even need Daniel to explain what you meant for me, I got it all by myself before I saw his clarification.
Erek
I think the problem is that you don’t understand the issue I am raising. The issue I am raising is that the body armor they are issuing is inferior. I know it, the Army knows it and the Marines know it.
That article is lame. There are no sources available outside the article. Everyone is “anonymous”. :rolleyes:
Is this the same military that is offering reimbursment for said body armor? http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,78224,00.html
This is retarded when you people go into freak out mode with no substantial evidence other than a VERY questionable INTERNET article with 100% hidden sources.
Good grief…
I can think of 3 reasons why the army might legitimately do this:
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The Dragon armor is so heavy that it impedes the ability of a soldier to do his job and others must carry his weight in battle. Similarly, it might slow him down so much that the rest of his group that is not armored as he is will have to move at his pace and their danger will be increased. If they are trading armor for speed and he’s slowing them down the danger is increased for all.
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The Dragon armor really isn’t better
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Because it’s nonstandard it doesnt’t integrate with the rest of the gear. For example, it may be difficult and/or medics don’t know how to remove it to treat wounds. If the medics haven’t trained on it, it’s a disadvantage.
I don’t know if those are true or not.
Anyone else looking forward to many cheap sets of Dragon Skin on eBay?