# Soldiers on trial for murder claim orders to 'kill all military aged males'. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885 "2006-07-24T22:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/81 "2006-07-26T22:55:55Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Nope. Your picking on **Der Trihs**. Because its easy. [/quote] I don’t think pointing out wholesale inaccuracies and logical fallacies can be defined as “picking on” **DT**. I doubt you’d be so quick to defend someone making ridiculous allegations against Clinton (or Bush I, or Reagan, or Carter, etc.). > [@](#): > > It is what it is. They were sent back to a situation where they could very plausibly die. If I smear you with hamburger and throw you into a pool of piranha, does it matter if you are wholly devoured or just nibbled to death? I assert that my moral burden is the same. If it is what it is, then why don’t we just say what it is? Why are you defending **DT** , who is saying that it’s genocide, which is something completely different? > [@](#): > > You are fixated upon that exaggeration as if by proving it an exaggeration, you cleanse all guilt. If they didn’t committ outright genocide (and assuredly, they did not…) then everything is hunky-dory. Not having any. One innocent victim is too many. It’s not an exaggeration. [“Genocide”](http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide/officialtext.htm) has a specific definition, and these events do not meet that definition. Leaving aside the implications of DT’s argument – that the US military is operating in Iraq under orders to execute all military aged Iraqi men – conflating (alleged) murder with genocide is not an exaggeration, it’s a difference in kind. When I tell people that I drive a Ferrari, even though I actually drive a Ford Festiva, I’m not exaggerating. I’m saying something that’s false. > [@](#): > > Thanks for your kindly permission. **Der Trihs** regretably exagerrates a valid point to an absurdity. You claim that the exaggeration invalidates the point. Nope. I’ve looked back through the thread, and I don’t see anywhere that **xtisme** says or implies this. In fact, he said that turning them back may have been the wrong course, and that any civilian casualties trouble him. See, e.g., Post #67. I think you’re creating a strawman here. > [@](#): > > A joint US/Iraq operation? Really? The Germans declared Vichy France a “sovereign” nation, yet there was little doubt as to whose nuts were in whose pocket. And again, their participation is testified to by men you have very good reason to doubt, in that they have lied to you with fulsome abundance. Leaving aside the rather gratuitous comparison of the US and Nazi Germany (yawn), I see that you’re now disputing Iraq’s sovereignty. So if they’re not sovereign, then what did you mean by this? > [@](#): > > The point being: citizens of a sovereign nation (and they were, indeed, sovereign. We oughta know, we gave it to them…) were denied free passage on their own soil by an occupying army, as they attempt to flee a dangerous situation. It looks like you’re using Iraq’s sovereignty against the US (“They’re sovereign! You have to let their citizens pass!”) and also using Iraq’s non-sovereignty against the US (“They’re not sovereign! You’re responsible for everything they do!”). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/82 "2006-07-26T23:06:43Z")
[QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] So I’d be surprised if that allegation of “We were ordered to kill every military-aged male” makes it to trial. [/QUOTE] Why are you dismissing even the possibility that it might be true? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/83 "2006-07-26T23:12:53Z")
Would it help if I used quotes to limn less legitimate states of national being, as in “sovereign”? Do you want to debate the semantics of sovereignty as it applies, whether or not an occupied nation is truly “sovereign”? My analogy to Vichy France is pretty much applicable, Godwin notwithstanding, and your insinuation if offensive. We are the occupying force, whether or not we wave our magic wand and declare Iraq “sovereign”. The well-being of her citizens is our responsibility, if the burden is too heavy, tough noogies, we have no legal right there in the first instance. To turn back citizens into harm’s way who might otherwise leave defiles that reponsibility. Period. Full stop. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/84 "2006-07-26T23:55:40Z")
More directly to the point, incidents like Falujah make accepting an outrage as being more likely than if such incidents had not occured. That said, I think its very, very unlikely that an official order was ever given. I dont pretend to have the facts at hand, in any degree, but my initial impression, until facts demonstrate otherwise, is they are trying to pull something. If our people or the Iraqi people find such tales plausible, we have none to blame but ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/85 "2006-07-27T00:02:41Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] More directly to the point, incidents like Falujah make accepting an outrage as being more likely than if such incidents had not occured. That said, I think its very, very unlikely that an official order was ever given. I dont pretend to have the facts at hand, in any degree, but my initial impression, until facts demonstrate otherwise, is they are trying to pull something. If our people or the Iraqi people find such tales plausible, we have none to blame but ourselves. [/QUOTE] As this is actually getting back to the OP, I think I’ll leave the other stuff behind at this point. I grow tired of going round and round the mulberry bush with you (I’ll leave it to you to figure out who I think the monkey, and who the weasle 😛 ). I’ll just say that on THIS point at least we are more in accord. I can certainly see why our previous actions in Iraq would spark suspicion…while also seeing this effort by the accused as a fairly transparent attempt to shift the blame, or at least to muddy the waters. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/86 "2006-07-27T00:20:50Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why are you dismissing even the possibility that it might be true? [/QUOTE] I’m dismissing the possibility that it might be true based on: 1. Self-serving on the part of those claiming the order existed. 2. My faith in humanity is great enough to lead me to believe that at least one person, if the order did exist, would present evidence of it to the press, in addition to reporting the originator of that order to the originator’s Immediate Superior in Command (aka ISIC). 3. The training I received, just as so many thousands and thousands of others did, when we joined the mililtary. That training included, of course, the simple concept that following an unlawful order is also an unlawful act. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/87 "2006-07-27T00:23:55Z")
[QUOTE=Bippy the Beardless] I remembered a thread from way back where you showed great knowledge of military legal procedure, thought you could explain it far better than my layman attempt might have been. Thanks. [/QUOTE] I was curious about that. Thanks, Bippy. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/88 "2006-07-27T00:27:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] So, any of the soldiers now on trial, as an actual witness to the events and recipient of the orders in question, could bring charges against his CO, or even his CO’s CO? This could get interesting. [/QUOTE] Yes; however, if they make false charges against anyone, then they’re subject to trail by court-martial themselves. Even in the military, it’s not kosher to make false accusation. As I stated above, I do not believe–and I outlined my reasons for such belief–that the order existed. The Article 32 investigating officer would most likely come to the same decision absent any actual evidence of such an order’s existence: false accusation on the part of those who committed a heinous crime. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/89 "2006-07-27T00:29:30Z")
It makes me wonder about something else, and I ask the question of anyone who even _thinks_ they know something, because I know squat. I hear occasional reference to a widespread belief amongst our troops that our invasion of Iraq represents some form of “payback” for 9/11. I recall stories about the great statue pulldown, that before the pulldown (by a horde of jubilant Iraqis number in the tens…) the statue’s head was covered by an American flag, a flag _expressly_ brought along because it had flown over the Twin Towers on 9/11. I find that…disturbing. Put it like that. Anybody actually know anything? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/90 "2006-07-27T00:47:18Z")
[QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] Why are you defending **DT** , who is saying that it’s genocide, which is something completely different? [/quote] _Again_, I’m not; that was someone else. I called it mass murder, not genocide; I just pointed out that killing all the males and _not_ the females is a common genocidal pattern. Right out of the Bible - or chimps, for that matter. [QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] Leaving aside the implications of DT’s argument – that the US military is operating in Iraq under orders to execute all military aged Iraqi men [/quote] Actually, that’s what the accused in the OP said, at least for that operation. I pointed out it appeared to be fairly common, such as driving back the males into a city to be destroyed. [QUOTE=Age Quod Agis] In fact, he said that turning them back may have been the wrong course, and that any civilian casualties trouble him. [/quote] Given the way he bobs and weaves, I don’t believe they bother him. [QUOTE=XaMcQ] Good grief, Der Tris. If we, the U.S.A., wanted to commit genocide, we would be doing a better job of it. We could have blockaded Fallujah and not let anybody of any age and sex out and then nuked it. Or at least bombed it into a sandy crater. [/quote] But then we would have to admit what we are actually doing. We’re like the British Empire; we like to pretend to be civilized, but actually be brutal. We want our targets to “provoke” us into doing something we “regret”, so we can sit back in our comfortable chairs and shake our heads disapprovingly at the foreign barbarians. Nuking a city won’t do that; killing unarmed men as they try to leave the city won’t either. Killing them as “insurgents” or “accidentally” as collateral damage will. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/91 "2006-07-27T01:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I’m dismissing the possibility that it might be true based on: 1. Self-serving on the part of those claiming the order existed. 2. My faith in humanity is great enough to lead me to believe that at least one person, if the order did exist, would present evidence of it to the press, in addition to reporting the originator of that order to the originator’s Immediate Superior in Command (aka ISIC). 3. The training I received, just as so many thousands and thousands of others did, when we joined the mililtary. That training included, of course, the simple concept that following an unlawful order is also an unlawful act. [/QUOTE] Ya think? The [My Lai massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre) was exposed by Friends service workers in the area, not by any soldier having a crisis of conscience. I won’t suggest soldiers are “brainwashed,” nor that _Full Metal Jacket_ is an accurate portrayal of basic training in any branch of service. But it is true – correct me if I’m wrong – that BT routinely involves a lot of shouting, humiliation, and other psychological stressors not obviously relevant to the acquisition of military skills. No doubt that’s partly a matter of tradition, like Hell Week for fraternity pledges. But another, quite conscious and intentional, purpose is to break down the recruit’s personality, to some extent, and rebuild it in a form more useful to the military. That’s necessary, of course. To fight effectively a soldier must internalize military values, must learn to fear the shame of failure in his duty more than he fears anything else, to be ready to obey orders even when obedience means death. But it has another effect, to inculcate a kind of groupthink; the soldier is taught to be loyal to his unit and branch as his family, clan and tribe. That must make it really hard to break ranks and speak out about any order or event that doesn’t smell right, even if they told you back in BT that that’s something you **must** do. ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/92 "2006-07-27T02:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Why are you dismissing even the possibility that it might be true? [/QUOTE] I dismiss the possibility for a number of reasons giving the following scenarios. 1] The order was given and the vast majority of troops obeyed it despite it being both illegal and utterly repugnant. These two soldiers were the only ones to break ranks and talk about the illegal orders while the rest kept their fanatically devoted lips sealed. -Were this the case the death toll in the city would have been far far greater. While we will never know the true ratio of combatants to non-combatants killed, we _do know_ that the numbers didn’t approach “all military aged males.” 2] The illegal order was given and the vast [minus the soldiers on trial] disobeyed. If this were the case we could expect some collaboration of the accused soldiers’ stories. After all, if the vast majority were willing to disobey the order we could expect at least a couple to go a little farther and come forward with it. 3] The order was given and some obeyed while others disobeyed. Again, we would expect at least a few of these soldiers who had disobeyed the illegal order and go a little farther to talk about it. There is the possibility of the guilty soldiers pressuring the others to keep silent but unless the guilty soldiers have a large majority [which would bring us to scenario 1] I don’t see this as plausible. Frankly, the only remotely plausible scenario I see for such an order ever existing is if these soldiers were passed their own “private ROE” by their CO which was kept secret from the rest of the troops. Of course in that case it really wouldn’t be an ROE as much as a CO sending out their own private hit squad. Thus, I find it far more plausible that these soldiers are lying in order to try to save their murdering asses. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2006, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885/93 "2006-07-27T10:01:20Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ya think? The [My Lai massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre) was exposed by Friends service workers in the area, not by any soldier having a crisis of conscience. [/quote] Yes, really. My posting above was not limited to only military people. You’re aware there are non-military folks over there too? I really don’t see them letting slide such an order as that purported by the accused to exist. As you indicated, soomeone spoke up for My Lai and I believe someone would’ved spoken up in this instance if such an order did exist. > [@](#): > > I won’t suggest soldiers are “brainwashed,” nor that _Full Metal Jacket_ is an accurate portrayal of basic training in any branch of service. Good, because we’re not brainwashed nor is that movie an accurate portrayal. > [@](#): > > But it is true – correct me if I’m wrong – that BT routinely involves a lot of shouting, humiliation, and other psychological stressors not obviously relevant to the acquisition of military skills. No doubt that’s partly a matter of tradition, like Hell Week for fraternity pledges. But another, quite conscious and intentional, purpose is to break down the recruit’s personality, to some extent, and rebuild it in a form more useful to the military. That’s necessary, of course. To fight effectively a soldier must internalize military values, must learn to fear the shame of failure in his duty more than he fears anything else, to be ready to obey orders even when obedience means death. But it has another effect, to inculcate a kind of groupthink; the soldier is taught to be loyal to his unit and branch as his family, clan and tribe. That must make it really hard to break ranks and speak out about any order or event that doesn’t smell right, even if they told you back in BT that that’s something you **must** do. The military spends a lot of time and energy in training its personnel, even after BCT, in the laws of warfare and the UCMJ and in prosecuting those who violate them. They’re taught that those who violate those are not to be protected but rather are a disgrace to “his family, clan and tribe.” But for this case, there’s merely an assertion that such an illegal order existed. And that assertion was made by individuals accused of murder. Seems to me they’re not a credible source for believing the order exists. Until and unless they cough up some actual evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-on-trial-for-murder-claim-orders-to-kill-all-military-aged-males/365885.md?page=4)