# Soldiers raising/killing dogs - Any validity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583 "2013-10-29T19:43:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/21 "2013-10-30T19:38:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yeah, assuming for the moment that Vikings partook in this urban legend and had to kill a puppy they had raised from childhood in order to enter manhood there’s one thing that didn’t factor into these archeologists thought process: in order to be buried with said puppy they had killed at puberty, Viking men would have to be carrying around a dead puppy with them their entire life. To clarify they find a lot of beheaded/bifurcated dogs burials of dogs the same age (12ish) without associated human burials. The definitive description of Viking burials come from an Arabic source (yes they did make it that far!) The big chief died and in his funeral ship were various dogs (split in two front to back) cattle and farm animals and a girl apparently ritually married to the chief (and all his clan chiefs, post his death) and them killed…but all i was saying is the myth is widespread even to history departments. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/22 "2013-10-30T20:16:09Z")
I studied burials of people who lived in SE Oklahoma about 4,000 years ago. Puppy bones were very often associated with child burials. It was very melancholic, and I always wondered what the story was. Was this a pet of the child meant for the afterlife? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/23 "2013-10-30T20:28:48Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > In the Royal Marines, trainees are given a live rabbit which they have to kill, skin, cook, and eat, but they don’t do any of the raising. Likewise, my brother in the US Air Force told of the rabbit he was given during survival training for the same reason. He didn’t have to raise said bunny, though, and I’m sure there wasn’t anyone who checked to see if you actually killed the rabbit rather than let it go (or what have you). ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/24 "2013-10-30T20:49:47Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > I studied burials of people who lived in SE Oklahoma about 4,000 years ago. Puppy bones were very often associated with child burials. It was very melancholic, and I always wondered what the story was. Was this a pet of the child meant for the afterlife? Yes if you have an absolute belief in the afterlife then you would want your child to have company once they had “gone along to early”… indeed melancholic. ---
**Author:** ![Arete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Arete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arete)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/25 "2013-10-30T20:50:43Z")
If I was in charge of training a force intended to be the elite guard of the state, that training method seems like it would impart an incredibly dangerous message. The dog serves diligently, is unquestionably loyal, loves it’s master, follows his every command, and despite all this it STILL gets killed and discarded by the master once he has no use for it. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that to the state, you’re basically a dog. > [@PoorYorick](#): > > I studied burials of people who lived in SE Oklahoma about 4,000 years ago. Puppy bones were very often associated with child burials. It was very melancholic, and I always wondered what the story was. Was this a pet of the child meant for the afterlife? I recall that some Mesoamerican civilizations believed that being buried with your pet would mean that the dog would accompany the soul of it’s master through the perils of the afterlife until he reached his final destination. Might be related. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/26 "2013-10-30T20:54:42Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Likewise, my brother in the US Air Force told of the rabbit he was given during survival training for the same reason. He didn’t have to raise said bunny, though, and I’m sure there wasn’t anyone who checked to see if you actually killed the rabbit rather than let it go (or what have you). In the film “The Men That Stare At Goats” it is said that the US army first injured then practiced fixing wounds, on at first, dogs, but then even tough marines objected to injuring puppies and they switched to goats…i doubt its true. ---
**Author:** ![Streetsinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Streetsinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Streetsinger)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/27 "2013-10-30T21:56:25Z")
The most extreme version of this legend is in the bible–the story of Abraham and Isaac. God orders Abraham to prove his loyalty by sacrificing his beloved son with his own hands. And even though Isaac is rescued by an angel, it’s only after Abraham has demonstrated that he would (probably) have killed Isaac if required to. (I do not mean to imply that a child is equivalent to a dog; just that the same complex of emotions is involved) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/28 "2013-10-30T23:14:13Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Way back in the day, I had an 8th grade Social Studies instructor who had served in WWII and told us how the elite Nazi SS soldiers would be given a German Shepherd puppy to raise & train and then, at some point, had to kill the dog on demand. Any hesitation meant you weren’t elite material. Maybe they were given an actual German shepherd to raise. They were in Germany, after all. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/29 "2013-10-31T01:32:30Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What am I, invisible? Shit. Sorry, Purple. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/30 "2013-10-31T03:33:14Z")
> [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > In the film “The Men That Stare At Goats” it is said that the US army first injured then practiced fixing wounds, on at first, dogs, but then even tough marines objected to injuring puppies and they switched to goats…i doubt its true. I knew a guy who said he was/had been a special forces medical sergeant and that as part of his training, he’d have to shoot a goat or a sheep and then treat it for a gunshot wound. That’s what he told me. I’m not saying I believed him or not. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/31 "2013-10-31T05:09:15Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I knew a guy who said he was/had been a special forces medical sergeant and that as part of his training, he’d have to shoot a goat or a sheep and then treat it for a gunshot wound. That’s what he told me. I’m not saying I believed him or not. I got that too, Friend of a friend. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/32 "2013-10-31T05:49:50Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > Likewise, my brother in the US Air Force told of the rabbit he was given during survival training for the same reason. He didn’t have to raise said bunny, though, and I’m sure there wasn’t anyone who checked to see if you actually killed the rabbit rather than let it go (or what have you). At the Army’s SERE school, rabbits are also killed and eaten. It has nothing to do with the scenario in the OP, though. It’s just basic survial training to learn to skin, cook, and eat a rabbit. Not to mention other catchable/trapable animals and fish. > [@sidecar\_jon](#): > > In the film “The Men That Stare At Goats” it is said that the US army first injured then practiced fixing wounds, on at first, dogs, but then even tough marines objected to injuring puppies and they switched to goats…i doubt its true. I can’t comment on the part about Marines and puppies, but goats are definitely used for Army medical training. That isn’t a secret. > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I knew a guy who said he was/had been a special forces medical sergeant and that as part of his training, he’d have to shoot a goat or a sheep and then treat it for a gunshot wound. That’s what he told me. I’m not saying I believed him or not. You should. It’s not as wild or random as it sounds. It is actually all very controlled and organzed. But, yes, a large part of Special Forces Medical Sergeant training involves practicing live surgical procedures on goats. Everything from veinous cut-downs, crychothyrotomies, arterial hemorage control, amputations, etc. Great effort is actually taken to ensure the animals are never in any pain. Or, at least, are feeling as minimal pain as possible. Dissociative anesthetics such as Ketamine are given to the animals before they are used, and additional doses are given as necessary if the animal begins to respond to painful stimuli. It’s all quite professional, and the training is the best in the world. It has nothing to do with scenarios in the OP though. There is no time to get attached to an animal or anything like that. Here is some information on Goat Lab. > **[Behind the Secret Curtain of the U.S. Military's "Goat Lab"](https://sofrep.com/news/goat-lab-18d-training/)** > > In the darkness, the SOF medic can't see because the flashing strobe has taken his night adapted eyesight away. He blindly feels slowly and methodically [http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/04/secrets\_of\_the\_/](http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2007/04/secrets_of_the_/) ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/33 "2013-10-31T12:25:08Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > It’s all quite professional, and the training is the best in the world. It has nothing to do with scenarios in the OP though. There is no time to get attached to an animal or anything like that. I’ve read that SF Medical Sergeants are Qualified to do any surgical procedure except opening the cranial cavity. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/34 "2013-10-31T13:06:24Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I can’t comment on the part about Marines and puppies, but goats are definitely used for Army medical training. That isn’t a secret. There are also the famous (in some circles) “The Goat is Dead” films. The military filmed goats and pigeons being exposed to nerve agents to show the effects. I saw the films in 1990 when I was training for my NBC NCO additional duty but they were made in the 50s I believe. Not a secret since I found one on Youtube. The video linked below is just part of it. They showed goats in the open, goats in a bunker, goats in a foxhole. Then goats getting injected with 2PAM and Atropine. Sitting in a classroom and hearing the monotone “The Goat is Dead” over and over was morbidly comical. Warning Warning Warning: Dying goats and pigeons. But it was something like 60 years ago so they would have been dead by now. [Video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zvp_xhTfg). ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/35 "2013-10-31T13:44:56Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’ve read that SF Medical Sergeants are Qualified to do any surgical procedure except opening the cranial cavity. Like, in case they need to do an emergency battlefield hysterectomy? :dubious: > [@wikipedia](#): > > In the U.S., surgeons train for longer than other specialists; only after 9 years of training do they qualify. Given that it takes 9 years to qualify a surgeon (even a non-brain surgeon,) and the prime years for a combat soldier are probably the 10 years from 20-30 year old or so, I’d say the Army is vastly wasting the time of its special forces soldiers if this is true. I have no doubt that soldiers likely to be deployed behind enemy lines would find it useful and be able to do things like remove a bullet, and would do things like practice on animals, which was mentioned by **Bear\_Nenno** in the Goat Lab, but I doubt they’d waste time getting fully qualified as surgeons. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/36 "2013-10-31T13:53:00Z")
Found this: > [@](#): > > COURSE DATA PAGE > > COURSE: The goal of the Special Operations Combat Medic (SOCM) course is to train and qualify selected enlisted members to manage trauma patients, manage patients prior to medical evacuation, and provide basic medical care to team members. The course provide training in Basic Life Support/Automatic External Defibrillation (AED); pharmaceutical calculations; anatomy; physiology; pathophysiology; medical terminology; basic physical exam techniques; medical documentation; pharmacology; basic airway management; medical patient assessment; advanced airway management; patient management skills; pre-hospital trauma emergencies and care; tactical combat casualty care skills; operating room procedures; minor surgical skills; NREMT-Basic examination; obstetrics/gynecology and pediatric emergencies; cardiac pharmacology; Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS); EMT Paramedic clinical rotation and field internship consists of a 2-week hospital rotation in the emergency department, labor and delivery, surgical intensive care, pediatric emergency department, operating room, and a 2-week ambulance rotation with an assignment to an Advanced Life Support EMS unit responsible for responding to a variety of 911 emergency calls; USSOCOM EMT-Paramedic exam; care of the trauma patient in a field environment; preventive medicine; Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) casualty care, and nursing care; 30 hours of clinical rotations in clinics located on Fort Bragg, NC, conducting sick call under the supervision of a physician or physician’s assistant. > > COURSE LENGTH: 26 weeks [http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nsomi/Pages/SpecialOperationsCombatMedicCourse.aspx](http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nsomi/Pages/SpecialOperationsCombatMedicCourse.aspx) Sounds like very good training, and I don’t doubt you want the highest standards for candidates whose positions are going to be literally life-and-death critical. But note the part that says “operating room procedures, minor surgical skills” - doesn’t sound like becoming a fully-qualified surgeon. ---
**Author:** ![sidecar\_jon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@sidecar\_jon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sidecar_jon)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/37 "2013-10-31T15:24:13Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Warning Warning Warning: Dying goats and pigeons. But it was something like 60 years ago so they would have been dead by now. [Video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0zvp_xhTfg). Not quite as funny as the Soldiers on LSD film (made better by dead pan British commentary [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rWnQphPdQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rWnQphPdQ)) I think Porton Down (UK weapons center) switched from dogs to goats for testing as their lung better matched humans in gas tests etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/38 "2013-10-31T18:41:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > There are also the famous (in some circles) “The Goat is Dead” films. The military filmed goats and pigeons being exposed to nerve agents to show the effects. I saw the films in 1990 when I was training for my NBC NCO additional duty but they were made in the 50s I believe. Not a secret since I found one on Youtube. The video linked below is just part of it. They showed goats in the open, goats in a bunker, goats in a foxhole. I am pretty sure that goats are somehow the Army’s standard test subjects. I don’t know much about the making of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle outside of the movie _The Pentagon Wars_, but in it, there was a scene where they loaded the BFV up with goats and shot it with various ordinance. Completely believable considering everything else the Army does with them. I also read recently about using goats to test body Army. The NIJ uses clay and ballistic gel… the Army uses goats. > [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I’ve read that SF Medical Sergeants are Qualified to do any surgical procedure except opening the cranial cavity. Not by a long shot. They are not even qualified Physician’s Assistants. However, they are trained to conduct full amputations of limbs to include post op recovery/monitoring, inserting chest tubes, dentistry and teeth pulling, veterinary science and medical procedures, OBGYN and child birth/delivery, administering shots and vaccines, drawing blood and doing lab work, using an EKG, stitching wounds, venous cut downs, crychs, entubations, nerve blocks. Not to mention treating chest wounds and performing needle thoracostomies, which every Soldier in the Army is taught now. > [@wevets](#): > > I have no doubt that soldiers likely to be deployed behind enemy lines would find it useful and be able to do things like remove a bullet, and would do things like practice on animals, which was mentioned by **Bear\_Nenno** in the Goat Lab, but I doubt they’d waste time getting fully qualified as surgeons. After about 6 months of medical training, they also hone their skills in a real trauma center. I am not sure how long it takes a civilian to be qualified to put in bilateral chest tubes, for instance, but they’re doing it after 6 months. The course is focused on practical application of the skills, whereas I assume the civilian classes spend a lot of time on theory, rules and regulations (to prevent malpractice), and stuff like that. The medical students and interns at the ER are always surprised at what the military medics are allowed to do in the hospital after not even a half year of training. > [@wevets](#): > > Found this: > [http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nsomi/Pages/SpecialOperationsCombatMedicCourse.aspx](http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmotc/nsomi/Pages/SpecialOperationsCombatMedicCourse.aspx) Sounds like very good training, and I don’t doubt you want the highest standards for candidates whose positions are going to be literally life-and-death critical. But note the part that says “operating room procedures, minor surgical skills” - doesn’t sound like becoming a fully-qualified surgeon. Keep in mind, that is the Navy’s site and it is talking about SOCM. Special Operations Combat Medic course is 6 months long and it ends with students working for a couple weeks in a civilian ER and a couple weeks working on an ambulance crew with the city’s Fire Rescue. This same course is attended by Navy Seal medics, Ranger Medics, Air Force PJs, Marine MARSOC medics (which are actually selected Navy corpsmen), and Army Special Forces Combat Medics. That 6 month mark is only the halfway point for the SF Medical Sergeants, though! All the other special operations medics attend SOCM and call it good. SF Medics keep going for an additional 6 months. That is where more advanced surgical procedures such as amputations are taught. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/39 "2013-10-31T19:25:37Z")
> [@Arete](#): > > I recall that some Mesoamerican civilizations believed that being buried with your pet would mean that the dog would accompany the soul of it’s master through the perils of the afterlife until he reached his final destination. Might be related. Could be, but the populations I looked at were way before any Mesoamerican civilization. I always assumed it was because the puppies were meant as a pet in the afterlife, but only because that’s what I wanted to believe. I really didn’t have anything to base that on other than it being a common belief in other cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583/40 "2013-10-31T19:29:38Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I am pretty sure that goats are somehow the Army’s standard test subjects. My NBC days are long behind me but I remember them saying that goats and pigeons were used specifically in nerve agent testing because the pigeons succumb quicker to the effects than humans and goats take longer. No idea if that is true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-raising-killing-dogs-any-validity/672583.md?page=3)