# Soldiers who properly execute their duties are not murderers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780 "2007-02-19T04:22:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/61 "2007-02-21T00:10:58Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] The long and the short of it is that moral standards change. Morals are not the same now as they were 20 years ago, much less 60 years ago. Many things that would be considered solidly immoral today were at least “gray area” during WW2, and it’s disingenuous to imply otherwise. [/QUOTE] Great point, asshole. According to it, we can merely “excuse” every barbarian act since the dawn of humanity because “morals were not the same.” Butchering innocent people now remains as immoral as it was 3,000 years ago, and, if we are to survive as mankind (which I highly doubt), it shall remain likewise 3,000 years from now. So stick your “disingenuousness” where the sun don’t shine. :rolleyes: And, BTW, **Princhester** , has it exactly right. You win, it’s not “murder,” OTOH, you’re on the losing end and there’s no telling how many “crimes” you’ve commited. Eeven if you followed the same rules. * * * That being said, congrats **Sgt Schwartz** , on training all those “killers.” Must make you feel mighty proud. Imagine it’s akin to what the Barbarians felt when shooting the shit around the campfire after one of their massacres. All in the name of what is right and just of course. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/62 "2007-02-21T00:42:38Z")
Sgt. Schwartz, keep up the good work. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/63 "2007-02-21T00:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] That being said, congrats **Sgt Schwartz** , on training all those “killers.” Must make you feel mighty proud. [/QUOTE] Had I any doubt before this moment on whether you’re a jerk, it would’ve been erased instantly thanks to that comment. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/64 "2007-02-21T01:12:36Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Had I any doubt before this moment on whether you’re a jerk, it would’ve been erased instantly thanks to that comment. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. Ever since I’ve started interacting with you, I **knew** you were a religiously deluded, brainwashed, militaristic asshole. Glad we’ve cleared that ujp ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/65 "2007-02-21T03:12:14Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Great point, asshole. According to it, we can merely “excuse” every barbarian act since the dawn of humanity because “morals were not the same.” Butchering innocent people now remains as immoral as it was 3,000 years ago, and, if we are to survive as mankind (which I highly doubt), it shall remain likewise 3,000 years from now. So stick your “disingenuousness” where the sun don’t shine. :rolleyes: And, BTW, **Princhester** , has it exactly right. You win, it’s not “murder,” OTOH, you’re on the losing end and there’s no telling how many “crimes” you’ve commited. Eeven if you followed the same rules. * * * That being said, congrats **Sgt Schwartz** , on training all those “killers.” Must make you feel mighty proud. Imagine it’s akin to what the Barbarians felt when shooting the shit around the campfire after one of their massacres. All in the name of what is right and just of course. [/QUOTE] Yeah, it does. Thanks for the support, **RedFury**. BTW, Fuck you. Thank you, **dahfisheroo**. I will try. FTR, I hope my soldiers never have to make that decision. I would also hope that under the right circumstances, they will make the right choice without the fear of being labeled as felons. A soldier may have to be a killer. Soldiers choose to be murderers. I hope to Og none of my men make the wrong decision. Sgt Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/66 "2007-02-21T03:13:10Z")
That’s quite an entertaining statement, Red Fury. What’s your actual proof of that? And, for the record, your own imagination doesn’t count as proof. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/67 "2007-02-21T07:11:34Z")
I consider it quite telling that the three biggest fucking douchebags on the Dope are the ones who responded to my post. Good times. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/68 "2007-02-21T07:33:25Z")
I’m not sure I understand. Do you stand by your post #56 or not? If you do, what do you say about my cite in post #47? If you don’t and it was crap, then can we assume your last post was just churlish whining? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/69 "2007-02-21T09:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] I consider it quite telling that the three biggest fucking douchebags on the Dope are the ones who responded to my post. [/QUOTE] Translation : You can’t think of a response that doesn’t amount to admitting that you effectively said in Post 56 that you have no problem at all with rape, mass murder, torture, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2007, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/70 "2007-02-21T14:04:42Z")
Actual translation: 1. I worked 14 hours yesterday and will work 13 today, and don’t have the time nor energy to wrestle with strident internet loudmouths, and 2. You’re not worth it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/71 "2007-02-22T03:34:48Z")
Yargh. Allow me to apologize to **Der Trihs** , **Princhester** , and **RedFury**. While I do find you contentious and frequently annoying, calling you “the biggest fucking douchebags on the Dope” was uncalled-for and overkill. You do not share my worldview (in general.) Big whoop. I should suck it up and either argue honestly or shut up. I’ve been working much too hard recently, and I’m tired and punchy all the time. No excuse, I know, but I want you to know I am capable of civil discourse without being a douchebag myself. I hope you guys can accept my apology. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/72 "2007-02-22T04:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] I hope you guys can accept my apology. [/QUOTE] Accepted. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/73 "2007-02-22T04:38:20Z")
If the sarge is happy about training folks to kill people that is sad. He should try training then to do something more useful. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/74 "2007-02-22T10:48:15Z")
He’s happy about training people to defend their land and also to operate within the laws of armed conflict. “Training folks to kill” is an incredibly simplistic, and not exactly above board, description of what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/75 "2007-02-22T20:07:23Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] He’s happy about training people to defend their land and also to operate within the laws of armed conflict. “Training folks to kill” is an incredibly simplistic, and not exactly above board, description of what he’s doing. [/QUOTE] Um, he called them killers and states that he teaches them to kill. How does this seem pejorative to you if you believe killing isn’t necessarily murder? ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/76 "2007-02-22T21:08:35Z")
[QUOTE=Spiny Norman] No one had envisioned the effects of saturation bombing. [/QUOTE] People in England didn’t know the effects of saturation bombing? In 1942? ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/77 "2007-02-22T21:24:23Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Yargh. Allow me to apologize to **Der Trihs** , **Princhester** , and **RedFury**. While I do find you contentious and frequently annoying, calling you “the biggest fucking douchebags on the Dope” was uncalled-for and overkill. You do not share my worldview (in general.) Big whoop. I should suck it up and either argue honestly or shut up. I’ve been working much too hard recently, and I’m tired and punchy all the time. No excuse, I know, but I want you to know I am capable of civil discourse without being a douchebag myself. I hope you guys can accept my apology. [/QUOTE] I don’t have a dog in this fight, but that was a fine post, **Ogre**. Sarge, thanks for being a sarge. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/78 "2007-03-14T03:34:45Z")
[QUOTE=bannerrefugee] If the sarge is happy about training folks to kill people that is sad. He should try training then to do something more useful. [/QUOTE] I tried training them to sing Elvis Costello songs, but all are tone deaf it seems. The 82nd Airborne Division has also attempted to drop the rifles and instead sing “Don’t Stop” by Fleetwood Mac, but discovered that they are still not impervious to bullets. Sgt Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/79 "2007-03-14T17:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=bannerrefugee] If the sarge is happy about training folks to kill people that is sad. He should try training then to do something more useful. [/QUOTE] What is sad is that training to kill IS useful. Better to have highly trained killers doing the work than a bunch of amateurs. The amateurs will cause more collateral damage than the professionals. It would be preferable that we lived in a world where killing was not useful, but we don’t live in that world. Guys like the Sarge, if he is like the \*#$@ Drill Instructors I had the distinct displeasure to be trained by, do their best to train soldiers to kill without being murderers. The goal is to ONLY kill the guy on the other side with a gun. Unfortunately, sometimes that guy is hiding amongst civilians. Ask a Vietnam pilot about taking fire from buildings marked with the red cross, for example. War is NOT scientific, accurate, and a Six Sigma/599/99% degree of certainty operation. We adjust the laws of war (Geneva Convention) as the technique of war changes. Flamethrowers were used to clean out enemy pillboxes. They were used in Vietnam. We then stopped using them because we decided that burning someone to death was bad, versus just shooting them. We outlaw hollow point rounds in an attempt to be civil. We are required to provide medical care to captured soldiers. We do our best to kill each other in a nice fashion. It seems contradictory, but until we find a way to stop needing to kill each other, we run with the system we have. Thanks Sarge, I raise a glass to you even while I curse your type even after 20+ years since I was put through the ringer. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780/80 "2007-03-14T18:20:50Z")
**Ogre** , no worries, I wasn’t exactly a model of civility either, thus apology taken and given. Get some rest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/soldiers-who-properly-execute-their-duties-are-not-murderers/392780.md?page=5)