# Solicitation for help: Scottish Gaelic **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2008, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411 "2008-10-17T17:23:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/21 "2008-10-19T19:21:21Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > It seems there are two ways to pronounce the “gh”; broad and slender. The broad is a voiced velar fricative (similar to the German “ach”, only voiced), and the slender is a voiced palatal fricative (similar to the German “ich”, only voiced). It looks like broad consonants occur before or after “a”, “o”, or “u”, and slender before “i” or “e”. I don’t know which applies before “r”. It’s broad (non-palatalised), because the vowel after it, “a” is broad. The intervening “r” doesn’t matter. “gh” is just the voiced version of “ch”. And you’re exactly right about the “d” in “caidil” being palatalised. So “kadjil” is a bit of an exaggeration - it’s actually “kad’il”; or as Dr Drake says in Scottish “kat’il”, where the ’ indicates palatalisation. Your suggested pronunciation looks okay, but I think maybe it should be /is/ rather than /ish/ and maybe /fottal/ rather than /fatal/. /fok/ for “phoig” looks wrong; it would be /foge/ in Irish. I don’t know about the vowel sounds in “graidh”, “traith” and “baigh”. In Irish somewhere between /aw/ and /oy/. Aside: Dia duit a Ghadaí - ní Gaeilgeoir mise ach tá beagán Gaeilge agamsa freisin. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2008, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/22 "2008-10-19T20:06:53Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > It’s broad (non-palatalised), because the vowel after it, “a” is broad. The intervening “r” doesn’t matter. “gh” is just the voiced version of “ch”. > > And you’re exactly right about the “d” in “caidil” being palatalised. So “kadjil” is a bit of an exaggeration - it’s actually “kad’il”; or as Dr Drake says in Scottish “kat’il”, where the ’ indicates palatalisation. > > Your suggested pronunciation looks okay, but I think maybe it should be /is/ rather than /ish/ and maybe /fottal/ rather than /fatal/. /fok/ for “phoig” looks wrong; it would be /foge/ in Irish. I don’t know about the vowel sounds in “graidh”, “traith” and “baigh”. In Irish somewhere between /aw/ and /oy/. > > Aside: Dia duit a Ghadaí - ní Gaeilgeoir mise ach tá beagán Gaeilge agamsa freisin. The /k/ sound I’m going for is a soft, unaspirated one, which would sound very much like /g/, so I suspect we largely agree on that sound. I know _is_ is /is/ in Irish, but I wasn’t sure about Scottish. Strictly speaking, it’s a slender “s”, which would be /sh/. That’s something we’ll have to figure out somewhere along the line. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/23 "2008-10-20T14:15:21Z")
All right. Verse 3, with my attempt at it. Eala rid’ thaobh, Is roin os do chionn Lacha Mhoire ‘sa’ cheol 'Scha’n fhaobhar mo bhrhònag “Ehla reet’ hoov ees [eesh] ron os do chyon Lacha voreh sa chyol Schan oovar mo vronak” The “oo” sound in _thaobh_ and _fhaobhar_ should, I believe, be the short “oo” found in “foot”, not the long “oo” of “food”. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/24 "2008-10-20T16:15:26Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > All right. Verse 3, with my attempt at it. > > Eala rid’ thaobh, > Is roin os do chionn > Lacha Mhoire ‘sa’ cheol > 'Scha’n fhaobhar mo bhrhònag > > “Ehla reet’ hoov > ees [eesh] ron os do chyon > Lacha voreh sa chyol > Schan oovar mo vronak” > > The “oo” sound in _thaobh_ and _fhaobhar_ should, I believe, be the short “oo” found in “foot”, not the long “oo” of “food”. I don’t think AO should ever be “oo,” but there’s a tremendous variety between dialects. IMO you’re better off with “ee” in ScGaelic, even in a broad context. “Is” is like Irish, spelled slender but really broad. I’d say “oss duh hyonn,” with h as in English “hue” in slender position. Same with cheol: “hyole.” ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/25 "2008-10-20T17:28:10Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I don’t think AO should ever be “oo,” but there’s a tremendous variety between dialects. IMO you’re better off with “ee” in ScGaelic, even in a broad context. “Is” is like Irish, spelled slender but really broad. I’d say “oss duh hyonn,” with h as in English “hue” in slender position. Same with cheol: “hyole.” I’m going off the [wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_gaelic) for vowel sounds; I’m not sure how accurate that is. Are you saying that the “ao” should be “ee”? The “ch” sound I intended for _chioll_ and _cheol_ is the forward one (voiceless palatal fricative/German ichlaut), not the velar fricative. I’d use IPA to make my intentions a little clearer, but I don’t know how to code it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/26 "2008-10-20T17:33:32Z")
Well, not really “ee,” but that’s closer than “oo” in English. Try this site [http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm](http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm), which is both clear and comprehensive. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/27 "2008-10-20T17:40:27Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, not really “ee,” but that’s closer than “oo” in English. Try this site [http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm](http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm), which is both clear and comprehensive. According to that site: \*There are two other long vowels in Scottish Gaelic. The first is spelled ao and is pronounced like long ù but with the lips spread (i.e. not rounded). … Long ao like \ in \ but with spread lips [ɯː]\* That’s more or less what I was going for. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411/28 "2008-10-20T23:24:24Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Well, not really “ee,” but that’s closer than “oo” in English. Try this site [http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm](http://www.akerbeltz.org/fuaimean/fuaimean.htm), which is both clear and comprehensive. Great site by the way. That really clears a lot of things up. I’m going to go back through my transcription and see what changes I need to make. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solicitation-for-help-scottish-gaelic/468411.md?page=1)