# solitary confinement is cruel **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 2, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896 "2013-11-02T01:31:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/21 "2013-11-02T21:05:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Gee, that really sucks (if any of it is true - I am not sure I would take a prisoner’s word for much). An amount of dubiety is warranted, but don’t be too quick to throw out a major source of information on the subject. This would put too much credence in the word of prison guards and wardens. Information without balance is…unbalanced. > [@](#): > > Too bad there isn’t anything he could have done to avoid solitary, like abide by the rules, or even (God forbid) not get sent to prison in the first place. True, but so what? This discussion is in the context of prison systems. Hooray for everyone who isn’t in the prison system, but there isn’t any relevance in that to this thread. You should have bought Xerox in 1962, too, but it’s a little late to bring that up. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/22 "2013-11-02T21:20:23Z")
Solitary confinement as a behavior changer isn’t really very effective. If it were, I could understand using it the way it is used currently. It makes the mentally ill worse. It drives up costs of caring for them. Left in segregation, they tend to injure themselves and attempt suicide far, far more often than the non mentally ill inmate population. And it tends to make their mental illnesses worse, which means more costly treatments, and more challenges in returning them to society when they leave prison. And they do leave prison. I actually miss the days of mental institutions. While no picnic, on average it was often better for the mentally ill to be confined to one of those than to be confined to prison. Solitary is appropriate confinement for those inmates who are a danger to others. But the majority of solitary inmates in our system are not dangers to others. Solitary is an effective punitive corrective tool for a small segment of the population. But this tool has been expanded to be used on many more inmates on whom it is not effective. And that’s not efficient, economical, or wise. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/23 "2013-11-02T21:38:29Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > It makes the mentally ill worse. It drives up costs of caring for them. Left in segregation, they tend to injure themselves and attempt suicide far, far more often than the non mentally ill inmate population. I believe there is a significant constituency who believe that is good thing. ---
**Author:** ![cornopean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cornopean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornopean)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/24 "2013-11-02T21:42:05Z")
I think forced labor is far more compassionate than solitary confinement. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/25 "2013-11-02T21:54:53Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > An amount of dubiety is warranted, but don’t be too quick to throw out a major source of information on the subject. I’m not throwing out anything, nor am I accepting it at face value. I need more than a convict’s word for it. > [@](#): > > True, but so what? This discussion is in the context of prison systems. You seem to have skipped over the part where I asked why this guy can’t seem to abide by the rules in the prison system. OK, so he is a fuck up to the point where he gets sent to prison. But even behind bars he fucks up so much more than the other inmates that he gets sent to solitary a lot. You also need to note the weasel words in the article. Even this guy doesn’t claim he was in solitary for the whole time. He (or at least the author of the article) says he was in solitary _or some other kind of special custody_ for the period he says was such an abuse. He’s trying to make it sound as bad as he can, obviously. I need more than this article to conclude that he was being locked away from the sun for months just because he had too many stamps. It might just be possible that the stamps were not just an isolated incident, or that anyone who eats an apple core is tossed in the hole right off. Gosh, a convict complaining that he doesn’t like it in prison. What more evidence of widespread abuse do we need? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/26 "2013-11-02T21:58:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Gosh, a convict complaining that he doesn’t like it in prison. What more evidence of widespread abuse do we need? What am I, on your ignore list? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/27 "2013-11-02T22:02:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not throwing out anything, nor am I accepting it at face value. I need more than a convict’s word for it. See posts #13, 19 and 22. > [@Shodan](#): > > You seem to have skipped over the part where I asked why this guy can’t seem to abide by the rules in the prison system. OK, so he is a fuck up to the point where he gets sent to prison. But even behind bars he fucks up so much more than the other inmates that he gets sent to solitary a lot. See posts #13, 19 and 22. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/28 "2013-11-02T22:44:34Z")
Is this case, my post is my cite. Three decades working in NY prisons. There’s a decent chance I was one of the people who sent Mr Mualimm-ak to SHU. And if not, I certainly sent thousands of others there. First point, prisoners do not get routinely sent to SHU for things like having extra pencils or postage stamps or eating apples. Those are trivial charges and they’re normally handled with punishments like having to do some extra cleaning work or losing TV privileges for a week. Second point, 2054 days is a long time. Even for cumulative offenses. I have seen a handful of prisoners who had SHU sentences that long but they were in for serious offenses like assault. If Mualimm-ak spent five years in SHU like he claimed, he’s one of the longest serving prisoners in the entire state. And I find it impossible to believe he has no history of acts of violence - I’ve never seen anyone in SHU with a sentence that long who wasn’t confined for some violent charge. Third point, solitary isn’t really solitary. If you picturing a dungeon, it’s not like that. Prisoners are in cells but it’s a row of cells. Prisoners are physically separated but not isolated and they can talk to each other. And every prisoner is going to be talking to guards and other employees all the time. Fourth point, prisoners do not spend all the time in their cell - even if they want to, which some do. They have an hour of out-of-cell time every day. Fifth point, lights are not kept on twenty-four hours a day. The hallway lights are kept on because guards are walking around and have to see. But cell lights are turned off at night and most hallway light are dimmed to half-power. Sixth point, prisoners do not just get thrown in SHU. There are literally volumes of procedures on when and how you can place a prisoner in SHU. There’s a complete due process procedure with reviews and hearings and witnesses and documentation and taped records and appeals and sentencing guidelines. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/29 "2013-11-02T22:50:35Z")
Qadgop the Mercotan makes boatloads of excellent points. and yet, I think the only reason we need to treat people humanely - all people, sick and well, free and in prison, mentally ill, everybody - is _it is the right thing to do_. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/30 "2013-11-03T09:12:56Z")
In perspective, the food through the slots is hardly the terror it was painted as being. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/31 "2013-11-03T09:14:42Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/32 "2013-11-03T09:20:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > First point, prisoners do not get routinely sent to SHU for things like having extra pencils or postage stamps or eating apples. Those are trivial charges and they’re normally handled with punishments like having to do some extra cleaning work or losing TV privileges for a week. I was also thinking about this. The writer probably forgot to mention the “Fuck You, Pig”, as well as whatever it was that he threw at the guard who saw the stamps, and told him of the regs. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/33 "2013-11-03T09:29:03Z")
I think that all \*\*Quagdop \*\*has really shown is that the mentally ill are poorly served in solitary, which makes it a mental health issue, nothing about solitary itself. Sure, solitary sucks. I would most definitely have sworn that it wasn’t a reward. Also, the 23 hour a day thing shouldn’t be quite so traduced as it is. At one prison that I visited during a Corrections course, the jailer said that it was a safe haven for many of the prisoners, since they had no natural defenses against the predatory inmates. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/34 "2013-11-03T09:34:41Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > I don’t think a lot of people understand what solitary means, I really don’t. > > from this [link](http://solitarywatch.com/facts/faq/) > > _For the inmates who endure it, life in solitary confinement means living 23 to 24 hours a day in a cell. Federal inmates in disciplinary segregation, for example, typically spend two days a week entirely in isolation, and 23 hours a day in their cell the remaining five days, when they are allotted 1 hour for exercise. Exercise usually takes place alone in an exercise room or a fenced or walled “dog run.” Some prisoners are escorted, in shackles, to the shower, while others have showers within their cells. They may or may not be allowed to leave their cells for visits or to make telephone calls. > Solitary confinement cells generally measure from 6 x 9 to 8 x 10 feet. Some have bars, but more often they have solid metal doors. Meals generally come through slots in these doors, as do any communications with prison staff. **Within these cells, inmates lives of enforced idleness, denied the opportunity to work or attend prison programming, and sometimes banned from having televisions, radios, art supplies, and even reading materials in their cells.** _ > from the same link: solitary costs more and has higher rates of recidivism. None of this stuff seems particularly cruel. What, no tv, art supplies, etc…? Next thing, you’ll be saying that they don’t get to drive the kids to church. Of course solitary and stuff is higher cost. It is more trouble to put up with trouble prisoners, and the costs are commensurate. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/35 "2013-11-03T10:09:04Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > None of this stuff seems particularly cruel. What, no tv, art supplies, etc…? Next thing, you’ll be saying that they don’t get to drive the kids to church. If you confine someone in a cell for long periods with literally nothing to do that is pretty bad. It’s basically sensory deprivation and endless boredom. (I’m assuming prisoners in solitary for protective reasons rather than misbehaving are given things to do.) ---
**Author:** ![Mattias](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Mattias](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mattias)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/36 "2013-11-03T10:20:04Z")
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**Author:** ![Arete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Arete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arete)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/37 "2013-11-03T10:23:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [Here’s an interesting cite.](http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/kids-solitary-confinement-americas-official-child-abuse) > > “The door was solid, without a food slot or window.” > > Unless they aren’t getting fed at all, someone has to open the door to bring in the tray. > > ETA; the same source mentions the prisoner being locked down alone “22 hours a day.” What happens in the other two hours? On the topic of the door, if the setup is anything like some units I’ve seen, the cell itself is often recessed deep unto the wall. Such cells usually have two doors, with a solid slab of metal with a tiny viewport forming the outer door, and a more traditional door made of bars or “chickenwire” with a slot for passing a meal tray. That probably explains the discrepancy. It’s usually 23 hours a day in the cell, with one hour in what resembles a reinforced dog kennel as yard time. The 22 hour system might have an extra hour reserved for callouts or something. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/38 "2013-11-03T12:31:27Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > I think the only reason we need to treat people humanely - all people, sick and well, free and in prison, mentally ill, everybody - is _it is the right thing to do_. I agree. But I disagree with the writer’s claim that living in SHU is inhumane treatment. Don’t forget that prison is a society like any other. The majority of prisoners live in general population and that’s where the administration would prefer them to live. The people living in SHU are the people who were causing problems in prison. SHU is the prison within a prison. And like on the street, you rarely get sent to prison for doing something directly to a cop. You do something to another civilian and the cop shows up to arrest you. In prison, most serious violations are perpetrated against other prisoners not guards. In most cases when a prisoner is taken off to SHU, the other prisoners are happy to see him go. Just as the police lock up criminals for the sake of the other people living in the community, the guards lock up some prisoners for the sake of the other prisoners living in the prison. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/39 "2013-11-03T12:34:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you confine someone in a cell for long periods with literally nothing to do that is pretty bad. It’s basically sensory deprivation and endless boredom. The writer is not mentioning a lot of things. Prisoners in SHU have library privileges. They can listen to the radio. They can come out of their cell every day for rec. They have cell study programs. They’re allowed writing material. They can have their personal letters, photographs, and religious and legal material in their cell. It’s not Club Med but it’s not the Hole either. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896/40 "2013-11-03T12:35:09Z")
All the people who crow about how easy solitary would be, sure if it is just lack of socializing. But it isn’t it is lack of any stimulation at all, no books no nuttin’. Only a few weeks of that will have most people losing their sanity, maybe start playing with feces. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solitary-confinement-is-cruel/672896.md?page=3)