# Solution to US gun violence **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 29, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181 "2016-07-29T12:34:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/41 "2016-07-30T12:08:37Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > 1. Legalize marijuana and decriminalize other street drugs. > 2. Improve addiction treatment. These will create a massive decline in drug gang violence. > 3. Better opportunities for ex-convicts. Recidivism is high because a criminal record ruins a persons life. > 4. Improve education, especially in high crime areas. > 5. Access to mental health care through Medicare and Medicaid. I heartily support each of these initiatives. But I don’t see why we couldn’t also: > [@levdrakon](#): > > What we’re going to have to do is severely restrict the number of guns in the country. We’ll have to go the way of countries like Germany, which actually has fairly high gun ownership, and make licensing much, much stricter. You should have to prove you really are some sort of gun professional and pillar of society, with all the examinations, mental health evaluations and positive background interviews with family members, coworkers and neighbors to prove it. > > Like Australia, we’ll need the populace to turn in their guns. We can incentivize it. Guns for game consoles or cash or something. Lots of people will hide their guns. We know this. > > Severely restrict gun sales and manufacturers, increase accountability, and eliminate the “lost or stolen” loopholes gun shops and sellers use to explain large disappearances of guns. > > With so many guns circulating already, it will take awhile to have an effect I know. Eventually, the cost of an illegal gun will price them out of the range of most common thugs and idiots. > > Dedicated terrorists will still manage to get guns, but the ridiculous number of shootings we have now will eventually drop. > > Bottom line: far, far fewer guns will result in far, far fewer shootings. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2016, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/42 "2016-07-30T12:43:17Z")
Gun violence is actually decreasing in the US, although you’d never know it from the constant scare stories in the media. > [@](#): > > In 1993, there were seven homicides by firearm for every 100,000 Americans, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. By 2013, that figure had fallen by nearly half, to 3.6 — a total of 11,208 firearm homicides. The number of victims of crimes involving guns that did not result in death (such as robberies) declined even more precipitously, from 725 per 100,000 people in 1993 to 175 in 2013 [Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/03/weve-had-a-massive-decline-in-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/) Still too many, of course, but it’s scarcely an epidemic. By all means adjust the laws (if they need adjustment at all) but we don’t need anything draconian. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/43 "2016-08-01T15:55:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Medicare already covers mental health treatments, doesn’t it? Part A covers institutional care, Part B covers outpatient and therapy, and Part D covers prescription drugs. There are certain problems with Medicare not covering non medical doctors, like psychologists and clinical social workers, who don’t agree to the fee schedule that Medicare sets up, and I guess they could change Medicare rules to treat them the same way as they treat MDs in regards to fees. > > That would probably be a good thing, but I don’t know that it would do a lot for gun violence. I don’t get the impression that the over 65 set commit a bunch of mass shootings. If you read post #23, I point out that I would be expanding the mental health benefit to persons of all ages, not limited by age, which is what Medicare does for ESRD. Medicare is _mostly_ for old people, but people of any age can get it if they have certain conditions. I think all mental health treatment should be among those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/44 "2016-08-01T16:26:58Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > How about we take all the guns away until we figure out what’s going on? Once we solve this violence thing, we can let people have guns again. The reason we don’t do that is because most Americans do not support your idea. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/45 "2016-08-01T16:30:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The reason we don’t do that is because most Americans do not support your idea. I was being sarcastic. You know, conservatives will say, “let’s ban Muslims 'til we figure out what’s going on.” ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/46 "2016-08-01T16:34:01Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > This is not wrong, but my counter to it is that I think we as a nation can afford to work on reducing those top 10 causes of death **and** reducing gun violence at the same time. We’ve got 320 million people, we can work on several things at once. Sure, but there’s still finite resources and not enough of them to solve EVERYTHING that needs solving. So we prioritize. I’m arguing that this isn’t a priority, at least on a national level. It’s just not a big enough deal when compared to the other items that the country has to face to really sweat. I mean, we’re talking about something that’s the 10th most common style of death at the very most, and even at that, our suicide rate is something that’s not actually outsized relative to the rest of the world. We’re 50th, with a rate of something like 12/100,000. This puts us behind such beloved developed nations as Belgium, France, Iceland, Hungary, Japan, Korea, Finland and the Czech Republic. Nationwide, homicides don’t even crack the top 15, with "Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids " at #15 being 1.5x the number of homicides. Even among individual states, it only cracks the top 15 in 14 states, with most of those being 15th or 14th, with only Louisiana and Alaska having a higher prevalence with 12th and 13th respectively. (DC has 8th, but it’s not a state). There are lots of other things we can spend our money on more wisely; this is a knee-jerk reaction to media hype by people who are already predisposed to see this kind of thing as a big problem just by existing. The fact of the matter is that there are literally millions of guns out there in private hands, and a vanishingly tiny percentage are actually used in crimes or suicides. If the number of gun deaths per year isn’t down there with measuring error relative to the number of guns that are out there and the number of rounds of ammunition that are fired each year for recreation and valid law enforcement purposes, I would be greatly surprised. That said, I’m all for spending that money on better mental health identification and treatment, as well as reform for the laws- I tend to have the feeling that the seriously mentally ill ought to be compelled to take medications and/or be monitored, for their own safety and that of others. I’ve heard too many cases where some crazy person takes their meds, decides they’re not crazy, or worse, decides they enjoy being crazy, and then stops taking them, with predictable results for themselves and their families. It seems patently absurd to expect rational decisions about treatment or medication out of people who are proven to not be thinking rationally (else they wouldn’t be mentally ill!). ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/47 "2016-08-01T16:48:35Z")
Gun deaths caused by mental illness is a tiny fraction of gun deaths, and I think trying to direct attention to mental health care is really just trying to deflect attention being paid to the real problem, which is simply too many guns. Let’s cure poverty first! Let’s cure mental illness first! These are things that won’t be fixed any time soon, and I think gun activists know this. There is an easier fix to gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/48 "2016-08-01T17:25:33Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Gun deaths caused by mental illness is a tiny fraction of gun deaths, and I think trying to direct attention to mental health care is really just trying to deflect attention being paid to the real problem, which is simply too many guns. While this is correct, I think it’s a misleading statistic. Roughly 2/3 of gun deaths are suicides. So, while mental illness isn’t a major cause, I DO believe that better mental health care can go a long way to curb gun deaths. Considering that, IIRC, roughly half of those gun suicides are men over 45, I think it’s likely a significant number of those are them losing their jobs in a rough economy, getting out of bad divorces, death of loved ones and parents, etc. IOW, I think these probably aren’t cases of long term depression or suicidal tendencies, but likely sudden extreme situations of desperation and suicide is the quick solution. The thing is, regardless of what side of the gun issue one comes down on, short of making guns incredibly difficult to get (which, even if you want that, it ain’t happening in the foreseeable future), I think we can make a HUGE dent in those numbers by changing how we treat these sorts of issues, and it starts at the social and cultural level of destigmatizing mental illness, depression, and this whole macho idea that a lot of men are inculcated with against expressions of emotion and seeking help. It’s not enough to just make resources available, we need to, on a personal level, be aware of these sorts of signs and help people we see struggling. After that, it’s crime, largely related to drugs and poverty so, again, unless guns suddenly vanish, I see it more as treating the symptom rather than the disease. Like others, I think ending the war on drugs and legalizing or at least decriminalizing pot and maybe a few other drugs is a great place to start. And dealing with poverty is a difficult and complicated issue, but I definitely think the money we save on not fighting the drug war could go a long way toward patching the social safety net and providing education and training to people looking for a better life. Hell, I bet we could probably fund both improved mental health programs and social and educational programs in poverty stricken areas with the money we’d save (and more we’d make with potential tax revenue) by ending the war on drugs. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/49 "2016-08-01T17:46:23Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure, but there’s still finite resources and not enough of them to solve EVERYTHING that needs solving. So we prioritize. > > I’m arguing that this isn’t a priority, at least on a national level. It’s just not a big enough deal when compared to the other items that the country has to face to really sweat. > > I mean, we’re talking about something that’s the 10th most common style of death at the very most, and even at that, our suicide rate is something that’s not actually outsized relative to the rest of the world. We’re 50th, with a rate of something like 12/100,000. This puts us behind such beloved developed nations as Belgium, France, Iceland, Hungary, Japan, Korea, Finland and the Czech Republic. > > Nationwide, homicides don’t even crack the top 15, with "Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids " at #15 being 1.5x the number of homicides. Good points. Let us start with smoking. Ban it. Now. > **[Burden of Tobacco Use in the U.S.](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/data/cigarette-smoking-in-united-states.html)** > > Data and statistics on cigarette smoking among adults in the United States. Part of the Tips from Former Smokers campaign, which features real people suffering as a result of smoking. \*Tobacco use remains the single largest preventable cause of death and disease in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year, with more than 41,000 of these deaths from exposure to secondhand smoke.1 In addition, smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion a year, including nearly $170 billion in direct medical care for adults and $156 billion in lost productivity.1, 2 - Allow smokeless and vaping for a while as they dont cause deaths do to second hand smoke. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/50 "2016-08-01T18:47:48Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Gun deaths caused by mental illness is a tiny fraction of gun deaths, and I think trying to direct attention to mental health care is really just trying to deflect attention being paid to the real problem, which is simply too many guns. > > Let’s cure poverty first! Let’s cure mental illness first! These are things that won’t be fixed any time soon, and I think gun activists know this. There is an easier fix to gun violence. Realistically, guns aren’t getting banned anytime soon. Continuing to beat this drum will be counterproductive. We can realistically legalize drugs (see all the states that have done so), make more mental health treatment available (the VA just doubled the size of their crisis center capacity, for example) and improve opportunity through education (see: every county/state level election ever). Whether you like guns or not, focusing on the ‘gun’ part of ‘gun violence’ is not as pragmatic as focusing on the ‘violence’ part. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/51 "2016-08-01T18:50:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Good points. Let us start with smoking. Ban it. Now. > > [Burden of Cigarette Use in the U.S. | Data and Statistics | Campaign Resources | Tips From Former Smokers | CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/data/cigarette-smoking-in-united-states.html) > \*Tobacco use remains the single largest preventable cause of death and disease in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year, with more than 41,000 of these deaths from exposure to secondhand smoke.1 In addition, smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion a year, including nearly $170 billion in direct medical care for adults and $156 billion in lost productivity.1, 2 > > - > > Allow smokeless and vaping for a while as they dont cause deaths do to second hand smoke. I’m on board. When do we start? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/52 "2016-08-01T18:59:45Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > I’m on board. When do we start? Write your congresscritter. But lets start local. Some cities have already banned smoking in public. CA bans smoking in cars with children. Start small. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/53 "2016-08-01T19:05:28Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Realistically, guns aren’t getting banned anytime soon. Continuing to beat this drum will be counterproductive. We can realistically legalize drugs (see all the states that have done so), make more mental health treatment available (the VA just doubled the size of their crisis center capacity, for example) and improve opportunity through education (see: every county/state level election ever). > > Whether you like guns or not, focusing on the ‘gun’ part of ‘gun violence’ is not as pragmatic as focusing on the ‘violence’ part. Well, earlier I mentioned Germany, which has strict gun laws, and Australia which took most guns off the streets. Neither of those countries has eliminated poverty or mental illness. Gun control seems easier and it’s been shown to work. No country on Earth has eliminated poverty or mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/54 "2016-08-01T19:18:25Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Gun control seems easier and it’s been shown to work… Not in\* this\* nation for either. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/55 "2016-08-01T19:26:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Good points. Let us start with smoking. Ban it. Now. > > [Burden of Cigarette Use in the U.S. | Data and Statistics | Campaign Resources | Tips From Former Smokers | CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/resources/data/cigarette-smoking-in-united-states.html) > \*Tobacco use remains the single largest preventable cause of death and disease in the United States. Cigarette smoking kills more than 480,000 Americans each year, with more than 41,000 of these deaths from exposure to secondhand smoke.1 In addition, smoking-related illness in the United States costs more than $300 billion a year, including nearly $170 billion in direct medical care for adults and $156 billion in lost productivity.1, 2 > > - > > Allow smokeless and vaping for a while as they dont cause deaths do to second hand smoke. You’ll get no argument out of me there. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/56 "2016-08-01T19:32:23Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Well, earlier I mentioned Germany, which has strict gun laws, and Australia which took most guns off the streets. Neither of those countries has eliminated poverty or mental illness. Gun control seems easier and it’s been shown to work. No country on Earth has eliminated poverty or mental illness. Congrats. You’ve discovered that something politically feasible in one country is not politically feasible in others. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/57 "2016-08-01T19:44:09Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Congrats. You’ve discovered that something politically feasible in one country is not politically feasible in others. Can we agree that solving crime, violence, mental illness and poverty are even less viable? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/58 "2016-08-01T20:30:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Can we agree that solving crime, violence, mental illness and poverty are even less viable? Nobody has claimed they will “solve” them, so that’s a non sequitor. But we are saying efforts in those areas are both politically feasible and will bear fruit on the gun violence angle. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181/59 "2016-08-01T20:51:03Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Can we agree that solving crime, violence, mental illness and poverty are even less viable? None of which are protected by the US Constitution and all of which the vast majority would like to solve. As opposed to banning guns, which has done nothing in the uSA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solution-to-us-gun-violence/761181.md?page=2)