# Solve the Middle East **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934 "2020-12-01T16:52:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/21 "2020-12-02T01:14:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They tried something similar in Yugoslavia. It didn’t work out. It turns out people can hold on to ethnic grievances for a long time. That’s probably true. I was counting on horny teenagers, which is never a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/22 "2020-12-02T01:27:36Z")
Evict **EVERYBODY**. Level the “Holy Shrines”. Convert it to a Nature Preserve. Trespassers will be shot on sight, by Drones. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/23 "2020-12-02T01:34:20Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > No, of course it is not realistically possible, because it would require either/both sides to be reasonable, and make at least some concessions. As **QuickSilver** indicated, the real problem for peace is that there over half a dozen sides: Israel Shiites Sunnis Kurds Turks Rich ruling oil sheiks Trying to come up with a means that would make everyone happy would utterly confound a Solomon. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/24 "2020-12-02T02:02:33Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Despite what the Islamophobes have led you to believe, the rich are far more to blame for what’s wrong in the ME than the clerics. Are you counting Iran as part of the ME? They were doing pretty well up until the clerics overthrew the shah. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/25 "2020-12-02T05:38:23Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Evict **EVERYBODY**. Historically, kicking people out of territory they consider theirs has not been a path to peace. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/26 "2020-12-02T05:42:47Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > They were doing pretty well up until the clerics overthrew the shah. Or you could say they were doing just fine until the coup of the democratically-elected PM by the USA and UK that re-installed the Shah in the first place. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If your premise is that it’s the ruling class who are causing hostility in the Middle East Causing, no. Sustaining, definitely. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Democracy would not solve all their problems. I didn’t say it would. But it would definitely help. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Because in most Middle Eastern countries, ethnic and religious hostility has widespread popular support. You don’t think a lot of that is fed from above (by both the rich elites and the theocracies)? Places in the ME that didn’t used to be hotbeds of violence at times in the past are now. That tells me that violence is not an inherent feature. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Most democratically elected governments would be more violent than the dictatorships that are now in power. I disagree. It would strongly depend on how those democracies are set up. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/27 "2020-12-02T06:02:54Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You don’t think a lot of that is fed from above (by both the rich elites and the theocracies)? > > Places in the ME that didn’t used to be hotbeds of violence at times in the past are now. That tells me that violence is not an inherent feature. I feel that a lot of the times when Middle Eastern regimes have promoted hostility they’ve done it to win popular support. So I feel the hostility is being fed from below at least as much as it’s being fed from the top. The places in the Middle East that have been peaceful in the past have usually achieved this by clamping down on their people. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/28 "2020-12-02T14:23:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Places in the ME that didn’t used to be hotbeds of violence at times in the past are now. That tells me that violence is not an inherent feature. Tribalism, religious fundamentalism, stoking of extremism are the set of inherent features. Everything else follows. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/29 "2020-12-02T14:29:25Z")
Fundamentalism and stoking of extremism are _not_ inherent features of the region. They are, more than anything, a legacy of the Cold War. Tribalism, sure, there’s always been that. But if it could work for (most of) Western Europe in the modern age, despite _its_ historic violent tribalism, it can work for the ME. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/30 "2020-12-02T14:31:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I disagree. It would strongly depend on how those democracies are set up. What does this even mean? Turkey was the most Westernized Arab democracy in the area. How is it doing now and why do you think things have gone sideways? It’s not the “how”, it’s the “who” is in power and by what means they are willing to maintain their power. Look no further than the US in which a populist authoritarian and the Christian right almost got away with it. I’m not entirely certain they won’t the next time they try. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/31 "2020-12-02T14:54:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fundamentalism and stoking of extremism are _not_ inherent features of the region. They are, more than anything, a legacy of the Cold War. > > Tribalism, sure, there’s always been that. But if it could work for (most of) Western Europe in the modern age, despite _its_ historic violent tribalism, it can work for the ME. It’s a shortsighted view to simply point to the Cold War and say that’s the legacy of fundamentalism when history tells us otherwise. Anyway, as far as the west was concerned, ME was just some exotic land with quixotic people and customs. A trade route. But let’s ignore the crusades and religious wars of the past. Ignore the dying Ottoman empire. Ignore the Barbary Wars. It’s not until oil became a highly sought commodity that anybody really stuck their nose into the ME. The reason peace works for Western Europe, and much of Eastern Europe too, is because they finally realized they can’t kill their way out of their differences. The realization has come at a very high price. Perhaps the ME won’t be satisfied until they learn that lesson for themselves. And they just might when the rest of the world no longer depends on regional stability for a reliable oil supply. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/32 "2020-12-02T14:55:14Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Turkey was the most Westernized Arab democracy in the area. If by “Westernized” you mean “under the thumb of its military and then a tinpot dictator” then sure… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/33 "2020-12-02T14:57:59Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > peace works for Western Europe I wouldn’t be _so_ quick to crow about a few years of lull. Tribal violence hasn’t yet disappeared from Western Europe, and some things (Brexit, say) could still bring the worst bits back. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/34 "2020-12-02T15:03:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If by “Westernized” you mean “under the thumb of its military and then a tinpot dictator” then sure… Be that as it may, it’s as close as the Arab ME has come to a western style democracy. And you know that. So I don’t know what you’re objecting to or what you mean by “depends on how it’s set up”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I wouldn’t be _so_ quick to crow about a few years of lull. Tribal violence hasn’t yet disappeared from Western Europe, and some things (Brexit, say) could still bring the worst bits back. Sure. It could all fall apart. But it would have to overcome a pretty long period of peaceful history, NATO, EU, G-something, host of other obstacles to war, not the least of which are a vivid shared memory of the horrors of previous world wars fought on their soil. None of which addresses the actual topic we’re discussing, which is not a problem with peace in Europe but the ME. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/35 "2020-12-02T15:11:13Z")
As usual, The Onion has an answer 🙂 > **[God Re-Floods Middle East](https://www.theonion.com/god-re-floods-middle-east-1819566424)** > > JERUSALEM—In what theological and meteorological authorities are calling "a wrathful display of Old Testament proportions," the Lord Almighty re-flooded the Middle East Tuesday, making good on last week's threat to wipe the region clean if there was... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/36 "2020-12-02T15:31:53Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So I don’t know what you’re objecting to or what you mean by “depends on how it’s set up”. The Turkish system was hardly set up like a Western democracy, the military had far too much power (which became sort of the back door for the Islamicists). That’s the kind of things I mean - checks on the military, checks on the religious fundamentalists, checks on the wealthy. New ME democracies would need all of those. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > a pretty long period of peaceful history If you’re using “since the 90s” as your standard for “pretty long”, I don’t think we actually have a lot of common ground to continue to have a meaningful discussion here. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > not the least of which are a vivid shared memory of the horrors of previous world wars fought on their soil. Like the way the memory of the visceral horrors of WWI prevented any further horrific violence in Western Europe? That kind of thing? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/37 "2020-12-02T15:39:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Turkish system was hardly set up like a Western democracy, the military had far too much power (which became sort of the back door for the Islamicists). That’s the kind of things I mean - checks on the military, checks on the religious fundamentalists, checks on the wealthy. New ME democracies would need all of those. I agree. Someone should write them a strongly worded letter outlining these details. I think they would appreciate the insight. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t think we actually have a lot of common ground to continue to have a meaningful discussion here. I blame “idealism”, or lack there of. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/38 "2020-12-02T15:44:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Someone should write them a strongly worded letter outlining these details. I think they would appreciate the insight. Oh, I’m sorry, did you mistakenly think GD was a side committee of NATO empowered to effect action, or something? > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I blame “idealism”, or lack there of. Whereas idiosyncratic language usage seems to be the actual culprit. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/39 "2020-12-02T15:51:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, I’m sorry, did you mistakenly think GD was a side committee of NATO empowered to effect action, or something? No. I mistakenly thought we could ground conversations in reality. The reason the ME suffers from a lack of a stable democracy is because the religious fundamentalists and political extremists aren’t interested. They’re not interested because it would deprive them of the power they have and continue to want to maintain over the population which they control through… wait for it… exploitation of tribal and religious fundamentalism. Pointing out the fact that they are ‘not setting up democracy right’ is not insightful in any way. They are setting it up exactly how they want it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2020, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934/40 "2020-12-02T16:55:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > The reason the ME suffers from a lack of a stable democracy is because the religious fundamentalists and political extremists aren’t interested. Naah, it’s because the moneyed elites don’t stay in power that way. The Sauds didn’t have to embrace the Wahhabists, the Emirs don’t have to fund every wannabe-Arafat that comes along - they do it because it keeps the masses looking the other way. “Follow the money” is always good advice. Putting this on the populace is just victim-blaming. The people in charge are not setting up democracies at all, never mind right. There’s only one functioning democracy in the region - and it isn’t Turkey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/solve-the-middle-east/926934.md?page=3)